I'm confused with the current Dr. Doom...

[Raye]

I wonder what the reactions to Two-In-One were when Zdarsky actively went against what Bendis and the other writers were doing by just writing Victor as the classic selfish ass Doom but with a begrudging D&D alignment change. Or where these accusations were for Galactus, a case of actual character regression.

You may recall from when we went over this in the Loki thread, (because it seemed like Marvel was reverting face turns left and right... But it appears Loki has been spared. Him and Doc Ock) that I was very much against reverting Galactus as well. Another change done in a quick handwave that didn't really make sense or even have any big impact. Need to kill Pymtron so they need to destroy up the entire planet, and clearly the only way to do that was to revert Galactus... Like, what? And then to add insult to injury, it seemed at the time to be a say to get regular Hank Pym back (tho I wanted to see more of Pymtron, especially if it was like how Spencer handled him in Secret Empire) but then that plot thread was just dropped, so he's just stuck in limbo now.

I just don't get this need some writers and readers have to see the same basic story put to page over and over, it's dull. What's so bad about letting characters have some growth without reverting it down the line? or creating some new villains? Why does it have to be the same ones over and over? I get that some villains that come back can be handled well, but sometimes it seems that's all they do.

When Hickman ended Secret Wars the way he did, and then Bendis face turned Doom, that got me really interested in what would happen when Reed and Sue got back, as we knew they would eventually. How would Reed deal with this new Doom that suddenly was on the same side? It was a new status quo filled with possibilities we hadn't seen before, but could still build on the past. Instead, we got a reset button, and it was very disappointing.

[SuperiorIronman]

Honestly I'm still salty about Pymtron and the wasted opportunity that was. We had the opportunity to have a real character driven story behind Ultron and Pym's issues and maybe working to some sort of understanding "love yourself" as Star Fox put it. Pym physically killed Ultron, but he wasn't mentally over it, so why not go for the double tap? It's not like we can't make another Ultron or god forbid a new villain. But instead its wasted opportunity after wasted opportunity.

[Xheight]

In other words "Let's turn doom back to what he was before because we hate change. Change and character growth sucks so lets repeat the same blasted thing over and over we have done for 50 years as we are to scared to change doom who has been used so blasted much some people were burnt out and sick of the old doom after the last secret wars."

A "anti-hero" doom with a fixed face who didn't waste his time attacking the ff gave us a new take on doom and was a much needed change of pace for him. But of course not. Let's change him right back to the 60s doom for the same story we had 2000 times. And this is why I dumped fantastic four and it's what got me into marvel as a kid!

Here, Here. So very on the mark...FF, Iron Man are two of the three books I still keep reading and was sooo Happy to have the FF back as a long time fan. Fan of Doom too way back in those Super Villain Team-up days or those solo stories even earlier. But you know what, that was done and rather than keep some vague idea of Doom going as an archetype of EVIL his Anti-Hero status could have been a better and longer run. I'm looking at You Magneto. I have not given up on the FF as a result but really I was enjoying the questionable hating-on Doom that Ben was venting before their comeback as it would be something with more depth if it was in some part just that Doom really knows how to get under Ben's skin and wound him psychologically if not physically.

[Michael Watkins]

Honestly I'm still salty about Pymtron and the wasted opportunity that was. We had the opportunity to have a real character driven story behind Ultron and Pym's issues and maybe working to some sort of understanding "love yourself" as Star Fox put it. Pym physically killed Ultron, but he wasn't mentally over it, so why not go for the double tap? It's not like we can't make another Ultron or god forbid a new villain. But instead its wasted opportunity after wasted opportunity.

they tried that in that garbage Avengers A.I book that Pym was the central focus of. it's partly the reason why there was a Pymtron. they had started focusing more on him as an Artificial Intelligence expert (as opposed to a biochemist).

[Xheight]

Here is an Idea that might have been better to return Victor to evil Dr. D.
Have the world buy into Doom as a legit World leader who has indeed turned over a new leaf and in every other has except for wanting to destroy the Fantastic Four and humiliate Reed.
A project of his that no one knows or believes in as he is now so helpful in climate change technology etc.
It would also be a great way to set off the rest of the supers from the FF as they are divided. It doesn't have to be Civil War-y but... Doom could be doing all kinds of borderline things too like hooking up with Atlantian rights....

[theoneandonly]

well the current version of doom does feel a lot like the one we saw in the silly puerile trashy FF book where Scott was the center of the book.

[Jack00]

In other words "Let's turn doom back to what he was before because we hate change. Change and character growth sucks so lets repeat the same blasted thing over and over we have done for 50 years as we are to scared to change doom who has been used so blasted much some people were burnt out and sick of the old doom after the last secret wars."

A "anti-hero" doom with a fixed face who didn't waste his time attacking the ff gave us a new take on doom and was a much needed change of pace for him. But of course not. Let's change him right back to the 60s doom for the same story we had 2000 times. And this is why I dumped fantastic four and it's what got me into marvel as a kid!

Thanks for all the answers guys. I agree with Gaastra, really a shame, loved the new Doom direction when he was a "good guy" with a new face, really liked him for the few appearances we've seen him act as such, now its back to boring old Doom :/
I don't understand why they always do that. Even with the infinity event, it was supposed to bring back all the trillions of different universes into a more restricted and less of a cluster fuck parallels worlds universe after the event, right off the bat when it concludes, you have Rich Franklin building new universes all over the place... fuk it all man

[Raye]

It may be too late for Doom, but if you want this to happen less frequently in the future with other characters, it's probably best to vote with your dollar, and support books where they do allow character growth to stick, like the Superior Spider-Man book out right now, with Ock doing his anti-hero thing, or the upcoming Loki book where he's continuing his face turn journey started like 10 years ago. Or Magneto in general, since he's one of the few where it's kind of universally agreed that he was better with some character growth, and though he's had some setbacks, to the point where him occasionally falling off the wagon if you push the right buttons is kinda part of his characterization at this point, and he waffles between anti-hero and anti-villain, he's still far more interesting and well rounded now than when he was first introduced. Show Marvel you don't want regressive nostalgia pandering as the norm, and hopefully enough people will be on the same page to send a mesage.

I mean I am sure there are a few others out there too, maybe Crimson Dynamo, we'll see where that goes in Avengers. And this doesn't just apply to villains turning face, as I said above I would have loved to see more of Pymtron. And I get having to reset sometimes, if a move is poorly received or otherwise damaging to a character, or was baked into the story from the start. But face turns are generally a lot less potentially damaging to a character's continued viability. They are also more sad to see undone than heel turns, because it is at its core a more uplifting and inspiring story. To kind of say that even if you screwed up real bad, you can still turn it around and do something good and become better. Undoing face turns left and right just kind of sends the message that you can't make something better of yourself, which is a depressing message to send.

[legion_quest]

Sadly, Marvel like their set pieces.

Doom is a set piece, so he had to put back on the board for the 'side' he plays as.

It's limiting and sad and leads to so much wasted opportunity and potential, and then people wonder why readership is at an all time low.

Because nothing ever changes, and anything that does soon changes back.

[Michael Watkins]

well the current version of doom does feel a lot like the one we saw in the silly puerile trashy FF book where Scott was the center of the book.

the one who murderers teenagers, you mean? he predated that particular run.

[Snoop Dogg]

I feel like I'm trapped in an alternate reality.

[Ursalink]

I knew Doom would turn bad again as soon as the Fantastic Four would have returned. But still, I would have prefered Doom stay as a good guy permanently. I mean, after all this time, some bad guys could just get tired of the whole super-villain thing, just to keep failing or being trapped in an eternal fight with super-heroes for all eternity. Personally, in their place, I would just fake my death, disappear, and find a place where I can get old quietly.

[davew128]

I knew Doom would turn bad again as soon as the Fantastic Four would have returned. But still, I would have prefered Doom stay as a good guy permanently. I mean, after all this time, some bad guys could just get tired of the whole super-villain thing, just to keep failing or being trapped in an eternal fight with super-heroes for all eternity. Personally, in their place, I would just fake my death, disappear, and find a place where I can get old quietly.

Totally agree. A lot of thuggish types (think Wrecking Crew and Absorbing Man) would simply mellow with age and while not necessarily make a face turn, stop trying to rob and brutalize people all the time.

That doesn't mean every supervillain out there is going to stop being a supervillain. People like Purple Man, Osborn, Sabertooth, Mystique and others with mental illness are always going to be bad guys. Personally I am NOT a fan of Doc Ock trying to be a hero, though at least his story MAKES sense. Magneto, Doom and Deadpool also work well as flawed heroes, as does Juggernaut. This heel turn by Doom is just so contrived and lame. Its like reverting Thanos to a brutish murderer after the Infinity Gauntlet. Guys finally reach their highest goals and then revert to form because...too hard to write?

[Alan2099]

I can understand where people are coming from when they say they're upset about always going back to the same old same old, but on the other hand a lot of the times when villains are made into heroes it takes away a lot of what made them interesting to begin with. Change isn't always a good thing. Making somebody like Dr. Doom a goodguy deprives you of an excellent villain and all it gives you in exchange is a lesser watered down version of what you already had.

[Iron Maiden]

I can understand where people are coming from when they say they're upset about always going back to the same old same old, but on the other hand a lot of the times when villains are made into heroes it takes away a lot of what made them interesting to begin with. Change isn't always a good thing. Making somebody like Dr. Doom a goodguy deprives you of an excellent villain and all it gives you in exchange is a lesser watered down version of what you already had.

I could agree with that except that Slott failed to make the turn to villainy interesting. I mean, Slott actually went back to Reed's finding flaws in calculations and Doom putting them in death traps. A regression like that just makes you shake your head and wonder if Slott bothered to read much of the past couple of years of Doom's arc in the MU. It would have been far more interesting if it came to a clash in the morality of the situation with Galactus. Was it wrong to enslave Galactus against his will to become a source of power (even though that part didn't make sense since Galactus devours huge amounts of energy to survive) or should you turn him loose on the universe again and have him wipe out another planet full of living beings? I guess he's not the "Golden Galactus" anymore ..... I've lost track of all the stuff happening to him lately.