View Poll Results: Do you think this was an appropriate metaphor to use for Rahne's death?

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  • Yes, it feels and looks like this

    27 28.42%
  • No, I think that doesn't feel right to me

    47 49.47%
  • I don't know what you;re talking about

    21 22.11%
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  1. #121
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    If I may, even the X-Men metaphor to Black America is kind of problematic at times. Ever since Xavier was retroactively compared to MLK and Magneto to Malcolm X, it's created this kind of misconception (esp. among white comic fans) that MLK and Malcolm X were at odds, or that Malcolm X was just a straight up villain, too. It's the same narrative that says Black people can't be radical, the same narrative that likewise waters down MLK's legacy to be misinterpreted into a color blindness that dismisses decades of institutional harm when really he was for Black liberation and Black power.

    Supporting X-Men media is fine and such but the metaphor is deeply imperfect and deserves to be discussed, rather than accepted wholeheartedly without question. This is where good media studies and critical analysis are needed in pop culture. Otherwise, then you get alt-Right folks misappropriating the X-Men message for all the wrong reasons, the same way they do with Star Trek and Star Wars for their own gain rather than recognizing that the messages and metaphors within them.
    Exactatiously.
    It's all well and good to acknowledge the allegory and metaphor inherent within the X-Men as a franchise but...be mindful that:
    1: The metaphorical and allegorical application is largely imperfect, open to interpretation and not without reproach
    2: Writers who are aware of the metaphorical and allegorical weight the X-Men carry will not always get it right. In fact they, more often than not, fall way short of the mark.
    3: Care and attention must be paramount when it comes to writers purporting the metaphorical and allegorical ideologies of the X-Men.

    That's why I can honestly say, after decades of reading, it's probably my least favourite 'aspect' of the X-Men as a franchise.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 05-03-2019 at 11:49 AM.

  2. #122
    Fantastic Member True Believer Tony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    1. Where have people made gripes about those issues to this magnitude in the past? People still support the movies, the cartoons, and the comics even with the basis of the xmen being a direct parallel to the black experience in this country.

    2. How do you know trans people dont exist in the Marvel Universe? The MU is supposed to mirror the world as it exists in real life. Just because there are no trans super heroes dont mean that they are not there. And the same came can be said to diluting the black experience to fictional characters mainly characterized and told through the prism of white characters. People predominantly have enjoyed these stories but now when there are parallels drawn to other communities its insensitive or in poor taste??? Seriously? This honestly, and frankly, to me is very hypocritical. Are these people taking Rosenberg to task also not supporting these movies, comics, and games for the reasons I pointed to with the black experience metaphor? I highly doubt it.
    So five white teenagers as stand ins for the civil rights movement isn't problematic to you? I'm not saying that Stan Lee hammered home this point or even intended for this to be the metaphor but I'm using it as an example to show that using real world struggles as metaphors in fiction without representation(when possible) can be seen as offensive.

    And when I say trans people don't exist, I don't mean it literally. I mean we have never once met a trans character in a Marvel book. The trans community has grown used to not being represented in media but when a writer blatantly uses a trans situation and the community still isn't referenced or touched upon... Yeah, that's pretty upsetting.
    Last edited by True Believer Tony; 05-03-2019 at 11:53 AM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by RachelGrey View Post
    I think she initially transformed out of instinct. Rahne has been a X-warrior for a long time so in a combat stress situation her training instinct is to go wolf and prepare to fight. She forced herself to hold back when she clawed the one guy's face. I guess this is the point where the writers fail Rahne as a character, because we don't know her thought process on why she didn't fight back or run. Why did she just curl up. Of course there are ways a good writer could address this, like all the X-Men she is probably suffering from PTSD and if you wrote it properly you could present it that Rahne had a panic attack and was unable to act because of that. The failure here is that Rosenberg doesn't let us see what is going on with Rahne, it is presented from the viewpoint of the attackers and the victim's mind is silent. I suppose in a way that does make sense because Kwannon is showing Wolverine what the attackers saw and of course the would not know what Rahne was feeling or thinking. Her death feels wrong because we can never know why she let herself be killed when she had the strength to easily overcome all four of them.

    Rosenberg admitted the trans metaphor was intentional, hence why he apologized because his presentation of that metaphor was poorly written. If a writer is going to take on this form of assault abuse, I feel they need to present the victim's point of view, and he did not do that at all. The whole attack is from the perspective of the attackers and we aren't able to fully understand what Rahne's though processes were in this situation. This is where there is a problem with female agency in the X-Comics these days, the female characters don't feel like they have agency over their own fates, they are written only to further the storylines of the male characters. For all of X-Men Gold's faults the female characters had more agency, Kitty and Storm for sure, Rachel got mistreated badly though. X-Men Red was really strong for Jean's agency, but I felt like it was really Jean's book and everyone else had a supporting role in it. I liked Red a lot though. Blue was not bad, both Jeen and Polaris came across as strong characters with their own agency.
    Might you have a link to said apology?

  4. #124
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shreene View Post
    Might you have a link to said apology?
    It was posted page 4. Here ya go.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AshcanPre...65856294739970

  5. #125
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Believer Tony View Post
    So five white teenagers as stand ins for the civil rights movement isn't problematic to you? I'm not saying that Stan Lee hammered home this point or even intended for this to be the metaphor but I'm using it as an example to show that using real world struggles as metaphors in fiction without representation(when possible) can be seen as offensive.

    And when I say trans people don't exist, I don't mean it literally. I mean we have never once met a trans character in a Marvel book. The trans community has grown used to not being represented in media but when a writer blatantly uses a trans situation and the community still isn't referenced or touched upon... Yeah, that's pretty upsetting.
    1. Oh its problematic to me but a lot of things are in America. I don't think its a problem for these stories to exist so as long as marvel try to be diverse in their storytelling which is what I thought Rosenberg was doing. Do we get stories of black people experienced racism or being treated differently because of their race? Have you or others expressed concern with these stories not being told by Marvel? Hardly, often times these things are frowned upon. The last time I checked these main stories of being hated for being mutant are still told from the perspective of white male/female characters predominantly. And yet here we are on a forum devoted to this group discussing them. That is the point I trying to make.


    2. I dont think its fair to put that type of weight on the shoulders of one writer. I would also argue mim writing this story actually is giving visibility to that struggle which I thought was an awesome thing. Why get upset with someone bringing these parallels to these stories instead of being angry at the actual perpetrators of such hate? This does not make sense to me. When has being trans even been discussed to such a degree within the context of being in the MU? His highlighting this through the experience of a mutant allowed for the dialogue which is something I appreciate.
    Last edited by butterflykyss; 05-03-2019 at 12:08 PM.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  6. #126
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    I personally dont think he had or should have apologized but I respect his decision to do so.
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  7. #127
    Mighty Member jpmst17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    that's not him admitting anything. that's him saying if people were hurt by the story, that wasn't his intention

  8. #128
    Mighty Member jpmst17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I personally dont think he had or should have apologized but I respect his decision to do so.
    I agree with you

  9. #129
    Everything Fades Away... butterflykyss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpmst17 View Post
    I agree with you
    thanks a lot. what are your thoughts on those who have found this story offensive to trans people?
    ALL HAIL THE HADARI YAO!!!! NOW AGAIN THE ONE TRUE AND ONLY GODDESS OF THE X-MEN AS CLAREMONT INTENDED!!!!!

  10. #130
    Mighty Member jpmst17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    thanks a lot. what are your thoughts on those who have found this story offensive to trans people?
    I honestly don't see it, and we definitely live in a time where people read too much into things and like to get outraged. I've found that the big issue is with the language, things like "you're a trick" and words like that. Those words mean nothing to me, and truth be told, as another user said, if they said "you're a freak" would we even be having this conversation? but people can believe what they want, I just don't see it

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by butterflykyss View Post
    I wasnt necessarily speaking to just the Martin and Malcom because they dont represent all of what it means to be black in the USA. I'm specifically talking to the aspects of racism. Being treated poorly because you are different and not having the rights as the majority because you are not or do not look the same as the majority. However, if we were to take your analysis of this even with that people still have supported this title throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s with the movies changing the superhero movie game in the 2000s. So again, the outrage with drawing parallels between real world topics to tell the story about mutants is not a new or foriegn thing. To become outrage about this being done with trans people to me is no different and if it didnt stop the show with black people it certainly shouldnt stop now.
    Honestly... Do you think that if it were oh, let's say Karma, she would have gotten the same negative emotional treatment if she used her powers under similar circumstances?
    Last edited by Shreene; 05-03-2019 at 12:31 PM.

  12. #132
    Ready to roll out! R0d's Avatar
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    Metaphors aside, at the end of the day an experienced X-woman that has fought against countless powerful enemies was killed by four frat dudes, YES 4 FRAT DUDES! And that's the story that was printed.
    What Rosenberg did to Rahne is an insult to the fans and to the history of the character.
    Hickman can't come soon enough.

  13. #133
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpmst17 View Post
    I honestly don't see it, and we definitely live in a time where people read too much into things and like to get outraged. I've found that the big issue is with the language, things like "you're a trick" and words like that. Those words mean nothing to me, and truth be told, as another user said, if they said "you're a freak" would we even be having this conversation? but people can believe what they want, I just don't see it
    I am far from outraged, but even without the use of the word trap (which only made it more obvious,) the scene as a whole was without a doubt based on attitudes towards trans people. The discussion is whether it was offensive in the way it was presented and/or did it deserve more of a focus given the topic.

  14. #134
    Spectacular Member Sapfiryt's Avatar
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    For me it was a surprise that Rahne has a relationship with Danielle? Is this reliable information ??
    X-Men is love, X-Men is life...

  15. #135
    Mighty Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by True Believer Tony View Post

    And when I say trans people don't exist, I don't mean it literally. I mean we have never once met a trans character in a Marvel book. The trans community has grown used to not being represented in media but when a writer blatantly uses a trans situation and the community still isn't referenced or touched upon... Yeah, that's pretty upsetting.
    So it is better for him to not use it at all? Or to attack the writer for trying (and failing) to represent this situation that happens in real life? Is Rosenberg changing dialog and not touching this subject the best result? It feels like people are saying like he shouldn't tell that story when they should be saying he needs to tell the story better.

    5 white teenage as stand-ins for the civil rights movement is problematic in some ways BUT someone got to see the story may be connected with it. Empathy is a huge issue today so if some reading connects with Iceman and can make a connection that persecuting someone is bad and then ties that someone in real life it is a win. That is why analogies/metaphors are good sometimes. I can't see how telling this story is bad but yes it is a fair criticism to say he could have done better with it.

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