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  1. #31
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Then it's great that the filmmaker's involved with 2/3 of her movie appearances are no longer involved.

    WB has been pretty transparent that they have no plan and just want to focus on individual properties, and are already distancing themselves from the prior DCEU apart from their successes. Jenkins only has one entry and it was the origin where her weaker status was expected and was a plot point as she was growing. We don't yet know what Jenkins has in mind for Diana's ongoing life and increasing power, so we have nothing to justify being all doom and gloom all the time until WW84 and maybe whatever the third film will be are out.
    Are you saying that WB released some type of statement stating their intentions and letting people know to disregard what they have seen? As you have pointed out, the comic book niche is pretty small compared to the people seeing the movies, so unless they all get some type of nerd report stating that things will be very different, I don't see why I should be optimistic with regards to her powerset.

    I, and probably others, can't just ignore the curb stomping she got in Justice League. That kind of tells me the hierarchy of what they want their superhero's to be.

  2. #32
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Are you saying that WB released some type of statement stating their intentions and letting people know to disregard what they have seen? As you have pointed out, the comic book niche is pretty small compared to the people seeing the movies, so unless they all get some type of nerd report stating that things will be very different, I don't see why I should be optimistic with regards to her powerset.

    I, and probably others, can't just ignore the curb stomping she got in Justice League. That kind of tells me the hierarchy of what they want their superhero's to be.
    ...why not? DC/WB are going out of their ways to ignore/retcon the Snyder films. There is no Superman project for the foreseeable future whereas WW will be getting a sequel and is a key member of the DCEU Trinity along with Aquaman and Shazam. WW is a higher priority for WB than Superman is, and literally no one thinks Justice League was a good movie. Diana has never been in a better position in outside media than she is right now. She IS above Supes in the superhero hierarchy right now, that’s just a fact. She kicked his ass at the box office which is the only real metric of worth to WB lol.

  3. #33
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    ...why not? DC/WB are going out of their ways to ignore/retcon the Snyder films. There is no Superman project for the foreseeable future whereas WW will be getting a sequel and is a key member of the DCEU Trinity along with Aquaman and Shazam. WW is a higher priority for WB than Superman is, and literally no one thinks Justice League was a good movie. Diana has never been in a better position in outside media than she is right now. She IS above Supes in the superhero hierarchy right now, that’s just a fact. She kicked his ass at the box office which is the only real metric of worth to WB lol.
    Does everyone know, not just the comic nerds, that DC/WB is going to ignore films at the box office? Sorry, but that just doesn't work for the millions of people that saw it in the theatres or on blu ray.

    With respect to money, Wonder Woman was for sure more profitable than the Supes movie. But yet, he still did the curb stomping, she did not.

    Are they going to retcon away what she has done in her showings in BvS and JL to show her flying before that in 1984? I'll probably pass out in the theater when that happens, but since it won't I won't have to have a soft landing to fall on in the theater.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Does everyone know, not just the comic nerds, that DC/WB is going to ignore films at the box office? Sorry, but that just doesn't work for the millions of people that saw it in the theatres or on blu ray.

    With respect to money, Wonder Woman was for sure more profitable than the Supes movie. But yet, he still did the curb stomping, she did not.

    Are they going to retcon away what she has done in her showings in BvS and JL to show her flying before that in 1984? I'll probably pass out in the theater when that happens, but since it won't I won't have to have a soft landing to fall on in the theater.

    Patty very well might. She is already retconning away the “walked away from humanity” bit, and WB is giving her and Wan a lot of freedom. There’s no one there to force her to stay in-line with the Snyder films. And again, no one liked Justice League. No one is going to be pointing to that as some benchmark of how WW “should be”. Affleck Batman is gone and Cavill Superman is almost certain to follow. You might as well just treat the Snyder films as non-canon because going forward they are almost certain to be ignored when it comes to Batman and (if he ever appears again) Superman.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    [/B]
    Patty very well might. She is already retconning away the “walked away from humanity” bit, and WB is giving her and Wan a lot of freedom. There’s no one there to force her to stay in-line with the Snyder films. And again, no one liked Justice League. No one is going to be pointing to that as some benchmark of how WW “should be”. Affleck Batman is gone and Cavill Superman is almost certain to follow. You might as well just treat the Snyder films as non-canon because going forward they are almost certain to be ignored when it comes to Batman and (if he ever appears again) Superman.
    Good point about Ben Affleck. He is no longer Batman. Somebody else will play the role and is comfirmed to be part of the DCEU. So they have done some soft reset already in more than one thing.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yeah, All-Star has that fantastic first page that distills the origin down to four straight forward panels. And with the notable exceptions of Supergirl and Brainiac, it has everyone regarded by most of the fanbase as essential, especially for the era it was capturing (the Silver Age). TDKR, meanwhile, requires you to know nothing beyond the fact that Batman is old, there's a new Robin, and who Gordon, the Joker, Superman, Selina and Two-Face are and what their relationships to Batman are.

    Doing that with Wonder Woman is considerably more difficult because nobody can agree on who the essential supporting players are beyond Hippolyta, where Diana should live after she leaves Paradise Island, which Gods had a hand in shaping the Amazons, which Amazon cast to use, who is her arch nemesis/important villains, what the lasso can do, should she fly or not fly and what does that mean for the invisible jet, is she bullet proof or not, and everything in between.



    Those problems existed before Azzarello. He made them worse, but inconsistent supporting cast, power set, continuity and lack of use for her villains are problems that have plagued her from Marston's death all the way through the entire post-Crisis canon.
    But the problems are far bigger now. In Post Crisis. Wonder Woman was more consistent, more active in the powerhouse field and her classic villains had a bigger presence. Nowadays it feels like forever everytime she may do something that screams powerhouse. And most of her characters are still very unused.

  7. #37
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    But the problems are far bigger now. In Post Crisis. Wonder Woman was more consistent, more active in the powerhouse field and her classic villains had a bigger presence. Nowadays it feels like forever everytime she may do something that screams powerhouse. And most of her characters are still very unused.
    She was? I was under the impression that Post-Crisis Diana was a mess. The three runs I most commonly heard cited as her best are Rucka, Perez, and Simone, and of those three only Perez got a relatively “proper” ending. Post-Crisis has stuff like Diana losing her title to Artemis, getting killed off and replaced by her mother, the utter mess that is Donna Troy, the JMS reboot that led into the New 52 reboot, Amazons Attack, and constant editorial interference. Or at least that is what I commonly heard complaints wise from Post Crisis Diana.

    And then Post-Crisis was where they really started to push sword in hand “kill ‘em all and let the Gods sort it out” Diana, with her being the Trinity member willing to kill while writers like Simone were trying to showcase her compassion and efforts to reform her Rogues.
    Last edited by Vordan; 05-17-2019 at 11:00 PM.

  8. #38
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    Plenty.

    For example:
    Ann Nocenti
    Jill Thompson
    Cecil Castellucci

    I think all three writes really good character driven stories with strong characters. With good editorial (as with Perez & Berger, Azzarello & Dennis), interest in the character, and the chance to write "the last Wonder Woman story" akin to Dark Knight Returns and Allstar Superman. I think they'd deliver.

    Or why not just a Wonder Woman book like Morrison and Sharp's Green lantern. Let the thing which makes her shine light the way through a really good and inventive adventure. I really believe that'd be a good course for a WW story. No need for an origin, just a "This is what makes her so cool, and there's a fantastic adventure."

    Regardless. For me the N52 run is the character's DKR or Allstar superman. Just wish they'd stick a "black label" on it. Give it and the ones who like it more room to breathe, as well as the writers of the book. Give them the benifit of being able to do something similar to this page, and no need to "fix" anything.

    Last edited by borntohula; 05-18-2019 at 12:40 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    She was? I was under the impression that Post-Crisis Diana was a mess. The three runs I most commonly heard cited as her best are Rucka, Perez, and Simone, and of those three only Perez got a relatively “proper” ending. Post-Crisis has stuff like Diana losing her title to Artemis, getting killed off and replaced by her mother, the utter mess that is Donna Troy, the JMS reboot that led into the New 52 reboot, Amazons Attack, and constant editorial interference. Or at least that is what I commonly heard complaints wise from Post Crisis Diana.

    And then Post-Crisis was where they really started to push sword in hand “kill ‘em all and let the Gods sort it out” Diana, with her being the Trinity member willing to kill while writers like Simone were trying to showcase her compassion and efforts to reform her Rogues.
    Badly writen stories like amazons attack have existed in all eras, and not just for WW. Post Crisis was more consistent than current WW. She was far more active and that gave her a wide range of feats to prove her powerhuse status. It wasn't nearly as hard as today, today it is not very certain if she still is a top tier. Her villains were used far more than in current comics. And her personality didn't change as much as it has changed many times since new 52. Post Crisis had its low points yes. But it was better than 2011 and onwards.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntohula View Post
    Plenty.

    For example:
    Ann Nocenti
    Jill Thompson
    Cecil Castellucci

    I think all three writes really good character driven stories with strong characters. With good editorial (as with Perez & Berger, Azzarello & Dennis), interest in the character, and the chance to write "the last Wonder Woman story" akin to Dark Knight Returns and Allstar Superman. I think they'd deliver.

    Or why not just a Wonder Woman book like Morrison and Sharp's Green lantern. Let the thing which makes her shine light the way through a really good and inventive adventure. I really believe that'd be a good course for a WW story. No need for an origin, just a "This is what makes her so cool, and there's a fantastic adventure."

    Regardless. For me the N52 run is the character's DKR or Allstar superman. Just wish they'd stick a "black label" on it. Give it and the ones who like it more room to breathe, as well as the writers of the book. Give them the benifit of being able to do something similar to this page, and no need to "fix" anything.

    azz and company felt the need to "fix" her. chiang said she wasn't interesting before. That she was "perfect". Funny because their work lacked epicness imo. While the "perfect" WW before new 52 actually has memorable moments and as a character, she touched on many more themes and was more diverse. I think you can't write game changing story for a character, if you won't respect that character's basics. Which is why i will never see azz work under a positive light.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    azz and company felt the need to "fix" her. chiang said she wasn't interesting before. That she was "perfect". Funny because their work lacked epicness imo. While the "perfect" WW before new 52 actually has memorable moments and as a character, she touched on many more themes and was more diverse. I think you can't write game changing story for a character, if you won't respect that character's basics. Which is why i will never see azz work under a positive light.
    IDK. Are you debating wether I should regard Brian and Cliff's WW run good or not? If so, why not just "agree" on the thing I wrote about labeling it "black label". Give things some distance. --which was my point.

    I'd much rather discuss women who writes really good comics, and what they could add to the character.
    Last edited by borntohula; 05-18-2019 at 01:59 AM.

  12. #42
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    Another one popped up in my mind. Patti Smith. Patti has lived a very long and rich life. She's a really good writer (she's written more than just music) and an impeccable taste in stories (she likes Haruki Murakami among others). I think she'd be able to bring something really cool to the character, if she had the interest and got the chance.

    Bit like how Allstar Superman is basicly Superman getting cancer and doing stuff before dying, DKR being Bruce at old age and meeting god on his own terms (beating up Superman).

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible (sad to say it)

    It's been my experience over the years, especially since Azzarello, that the Wonder Woman fanbase is rather divided. Couple that with multiple origins, multiple supporting casts, fluctuating power levels, multiple homes, etc., there is no longer a 'classic' concept that most folks agree on which can be used as the basis for an acclaimed and defining story.

    I'd love to see one, but I'm not sure it can be done at this point.
    Along this line, I think that holding up TDNR or All-Star Superman as "Widely Acclaimed Greatest Story Ever..." for Batman or Superman are even sort of problematic assertions.

    I know good and well that plenty of folks don't feel that way about TDKR. I can say with certainty it's not what I believe is the best Batman story ever was.

    So, yeah. The idea that the finest Wonder Woman story ever told would be an out-of-continuity story just seems off when I think of it. Having said that, lots of reviews seemed to think a lot of the "New52" run which was largely that sort of a story.

    So... I guess "Wouldn't rule it out. Just don't see it happening."?
    Last edited by numberthirty; 05-18-2019 at 03:08 AM.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by borntohula View Post
    Plenty.

    For example:
    Ann Nocenti
    Jill Thompson
    Cecil Castellucci

    I think all three writes really good character driven stories with strong characters. With good editorial (as with Perez & Berger, Azzarello & Dennis), interest in the character, and the chance to write "the last Wonder Woman story" akin to Dark Knight Returns and Allstar Superman. I think they'd deliver.

    Or why not just a Wonder Woman book like Morrison and Sharp's Green lantern. Let the thing which makes her shine light the way through a really good and inventive adventure. I really believe that'd be a good course for a WW story. No need for an origin, just a "This is what makes her so cool, and there's a fantastic adventure."

    Regardless. For me the N52 run is the character's DKR or Allstar superman. Just wish they'd stick a "black label" on it. Give it and the ones who like it more room to breathe, as well as the writers of the book. Give them the benifit of being able to do something similar to this page, and no need to "fix" anything.

    While I wouldn't have thought of it, Nocenti is usually pretty impressive when the character/concept falls in with her writing.

    As for Morrison, I don't that his "Batman" or "Green Lantern" runs are the sort of lightning that you can catch in any old bottle(Half of Green Lantern is only going to be fully "I Got That!" by a few readers...). That said, his recent track record could point to that it might just work.
    Last edited by numberthirty; 05-18-2019 at 03:03 AM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Does everyone know, not just the comic nerds, that DC/WB is going to ignore films at the box office? Sorry, but that just doesn't work for the millions of people that saw it in the theatres or on blu ray.

    With respect to money, Wonder Woman was for sure more profitable than the Supes movie. But yet, he still did the curb stomping, she did not.
    You think WB cares who curb stomps who in their movies? Studio execs aren't particularly interested in games of "who would win?", I imagine.

    Superman curb stomping is pretty essential if you're doing a "Superman goes evil before rediscovering his humanity" bit, as he can't come back due to being beaten to hell, he has to choose it. Either way WB is far more invested in the Wonder Woman property than Superman, no one can deny that.

    Are they going to retcon away what she has done in her showings in BvS and JL to show her flying before that in 1984? I'll probably pass out in the theater when that happens, but since it won't I won't have to have a soft landing to fall on in the theater.
    Maybe? Shazam had Batman be a widely beloved superhero with lots of cute merchandise after BvS established him as a widely loathed killer who I doubt would make be on any lunchboxes.

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