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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    Which is problematic for several reasons if you look closely at the opinions of fans on this forum.
    Why?

    For one, we around here are so few that we would be barely noticable not only for the movies, but for the comics publishing side as well. For another, while a lot of us has various gripes about the movie, I think most here agree that it managed to nail the most important thing: Diana's character. It also managed to make Steve's and Diana's relation strong and believable in a way that 80 years of comics history failed to do.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  2. #17
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Why?

    For one, we around here are so few that we would be barely noticable not only for the movies, but for the comics publishing side as well. For another, while a lot of us has various gripes about the movie, I think most here agree that it managed to nail the most important thing: Diana's character. It also managed to make Steve's and Diana's relation strong and believable in a way that 80 years of comics history failed to do.
    She's depowered, weak villains, etc. The disappointment is definitely there.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    No shade but we got several female writers for WW in the past and they weren't exactly game changers for her. We got a female director for the WW movie which wasn't that groundbreaking for Diana either. The WW verse is a mess at the moment so it's going to take awhile to clean things up.
    The critical and financial success of the first modern female-lead CBM, the green lit sequel and re-negotiated contracts for the star and director, and making her more popular among the GA certainly says otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    Which is problematic for several reasons if you look closely at the opinions of fans on this forum.
    Opinions on forums such as this don't matter at all when compared to the opinions of the GA, for whom the film was well liked and groundbreaking, as they provide the most ticket sales.

    Like Kjn said, this isn't the most accurate sample size and the WW fanbase is one of the most divided and difficult to please anyway. We cannot even agree on the basics like who her supporting cast and villains should be or where she lives, which is a clarity other big properties don't have to worry about. Ask 10 different WW fans what the essentials for her mythos should be, and you are going to get 10 very different answers. The movie(s) cannot possibly please all the diehards, and were never going to.

    The movie was a hit for the majority, just not for the vocal minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    She's depowered, weak villains, etc. The disappointment is definitely there.
    Again, only for the diehards, who don't really count in the grand scheme of things.
    She was not de-powered, it was an origin story where unlocking her powers and discovering them was an actual plot point. Dr. Poison was as Marston imagined her. Ares was presented pretty much as he always has been, etc.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    She's depowered, weak villains, etc. The disappointment is definitely there.
    Among some here; even here I'd say they are a minority (though a vocal one).

    That the villains were weak as characters didn't bother me one bit—first it's a common failing among modern superhero movies, second the movie was really a coming of age story, and for that you don't need that strong villains. The main opponent was really the First World War, in any case.

    And power-vise, she showed a nice variety. Characterisation is far more important than power to me, in any case.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Shallow characterizations for origin movie villains is hardly a big deal.

    Cheetah is where the true test will be. She has more meat on her, but Ares and Dr. Poison were always one-note in the comics to begin with. The former because he's an origin villain that is stretched way too thin after that, and the latter because she's barely ever used.

  6. #21
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    To suggest us in this forum is a good example of the fanbase is kinda laughable. ^^; Theres what, ten or twelve regulars for the Wonder Woman forum specifically and the occasional face who pops in?

  7. #22
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    I wonder, though, how much editorial shaped Morrison's All-Star Superman & Miller's Dark Knight Returns? Both were stories that were out of the regular timeline, and both authors were well-known and likely had a good deal of autonomy. I think both of these aspects are pretty critical to the success of those stories, free from the bonds of continuity and company-wide events.

    Who knows? Maybe Kelly Sue DeConnick & PJ's Historia will be that project for WW. I agree with others that it doesn't have to be a female writer, just one with a compelling vision, great talent, a healthy dose of freedom, and, if not a writer-artist, a great artist & collaborator as Morrison had in Quitely.

  8. #23
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible (sad to say it)

    It's been my experience over the years, especially since Azzarello, that the Wonder Woman fanbase is rather divided. Couple that with multiple origins, multiple supporting casts, fluctuating power levels, multiple homes, etc., there is no longer a 'classic' concept that most folks agree on which can be used as the basis for an acclaimed and defining story.

    I'd love to see one, but I'm not sure it can be done at this point.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Unfortunately, I don't think it's possible (sad to say it)

    It's been my experience over the years, especially since Azzarello, that the Wonder Woman fanbase is rather divided. Couple that with multiple origins, multiple supporting casts, fluctuating power levels, multiple homes, etc., there is no longer a 'classic' concept that most folks agree on which can be used as the basis for an acclaimed and defining story.

    I'd love to see one, but I'm not sure it can be done at this point.
    The fanbase is divided because of azz and the new 52. Before that it was a more united fanbase. The problem that WW and her fans have had for quite a while now, is the inconsistencies. In powr, in character portrayal. The lack of use of her classic villains. Lacking action in a book that is supposed to be the epic adventures kind of book. WW being too pasive, etc. Inconsistency is the problem.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Yeah, All-Star has that fantastic first page that distills the origin down to four straight forward panels. And with the notable exceptions of Supergirl and Brainiac, it has everyone regarded by most of the fanbase as essential, especially for the era it was capturing (the Silver Age). TDKR, meanwhile, requires you to know nothing beyond the fact that Batman is old, there's a new Robin, and who Gordon, the Joker, Superman, Selina and Two-Face are and what their relationships to Batman are.

    Doing that with Wonder Woman is considerably more difficult because nobody can agree on who the essential supporting players are beyond Hippolyta, where Diana should live after she leaves Paradise Island, which Gods had a hand in shaping the Amazons, which Amazon cast to use, who is her arch nemesis/important villains, what the lasso can do, should she fly or not fly and what does that mean for the invisible jet, is she bullet proof or not, and everything in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by starlight25 View Post
    The fanbase is divided because of azz and the new 52. Before that it was a more united fanbase. The problem that WW and her fans have had for quite a while now, is the inconsistencies. In powr, in character portrayal. The lack of use of her classic villains. Lacking action in a book that is supposed to be the epic adventures kind of book. WW being too pasive, etc. Inconsistency is the problem.
    Those problems existed before Azzarello. He made them worse, but inconsistent supporting cast, power set, continuity and lack of use for her villains are problems that have plagued her from Marston's death all the way through the entire post-Crisis canon.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 05-12-2019 at 03:06 PM.

  11. #26
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    To suggest us in this forum is a good example of the fanbase is kinda laughable. ^^; Theres what, ten or twelve regulars for the Wonder Woman forum specifically and the occasional face who pops in?
    Who said this forum was a good example of the fanbase? I was just giving an example.

  12. #27
    Spectacular Member Natamaxxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greymoon View Post
    Which is problematic for several reasons if you look closely at the opinions of fans on this forum.
    "Which is problematic for several fans on this forum..."

    ...is a statement a lot closer to the truth.

  13. #28
    mutant and proud ermac's Avatar
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    Roxane Gay

    Marjorie Liu

    Or, hell, Gloria Steinem :P

  14. #29
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The critical and financial success of the first modern female-lead CBM, the green lit sequel and re-negotiated contracts for the star and director, and making her more popular among the GA certainly says otherwise.



    Opinions on forums such as this don't matter at all when compared to the opinions of the GA, for whom the film was well liked and groundbreaking, as they provide the most ticket sales.

    Like Kjn said, this isn't the most accurate sample size and the WW fanbase is one of the most divided and difficult to please anyway. We cannot even agree on the basics like who her supporting cast and villains should be or where she lives, which is a clarity other big properties don't have to worry about. Ask 10 different WW fans what the essentials for her mythos should be, and you are going to get 10 very different answers. The movie(s) cannot possibly please all the diehards, and were never going to.

    The movie was a hit for the majority, just not for the vocal minority.



    Again, only for the diehards, who don't really count in the grand scheme of things.
    She was not de-powered, it was an origin story where unlocking her powers and discovering them was an actual plot point. Dr. Poison was as Marston imagined her. Ares was presented pretty much as he always has been, etc.
    To say she wasn't depowered is not looking at her appearances objectively or accurately. Say what you will about her skills/power in her first movie, in the subsequent movies I have seen enough to know that she has definitely shown to be less than her usual powerful self. Besides the curb stomping that Superman gave the entire League, she still can't fly. You can't just wish away the Justice League movie because it is out there with all the familiar actors and actresses that were also in other movies.

    At least Marvel doesn't seem to mind that their female superheroes are the most powerful in their universe. And before people misrepresent what I am saying, I don't want Wonder Woman to be the most powerful or invincible superhero ever, just on an even footing with Superman based on strength (slightly weaker) and superior fighting skills, as well as her flying.

  15. #30
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    To say she wasn't depowered is not looking at her appearances objectively or accurately. Say what you will about her skills/power in her first movie, in the subsequent movies I have seen enough to know that she has definitely shown to be less than her usual powerful self. Besides the curb stomping that Superman gave the entire League, she still can't fly. You can't just wish away the Justice League movie because it is out there with all the familiar actors and actresses that were also in other movies.

    At least Marvel doesn't seem to mind that their female superheroes are the most powerful in their universe. And before people misrepresent what I am saying, I don't want Wonder Woman to be the most powerful or invincible superhero ever, just on an even footing with Superman based on strength (slightly weaker) and superior fighting skills, as well as her flying.
    Then it's great that the filmmaker's involved with 2/3 of her movie appearances are no longer involved.

    WB has been pretty transparent that they have no plan and just want to focus on individual properties, and are already distancing themselves from the prior DCEU apart from their successes. Jenkins only has one entry and it was the origin where her weaker status was expected and was a plot point as she was growing. We don't yet know what Jenkins has in mind for Diana's ongoing life and increasing power, so we have nothing to justify being all doom and gloom all the time until WW84 and maybe whatever the third film will be are out.

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