Storm 616 VS MCU Thanos

[Marvel-Studios Rep]

Pretty sure 616 Thor has survived the effects of "the casket of ancient winters" just fine.

616 Thanos has no frozen feats but has overcome being turned to glass and what not. Are we really going to try and compartmentalize each and every form of "damage"?

What on Earth does 616 Thanos resisting reality warping have to do with Movie versions? Of course 616 ignores being frozen. He has feats of ignoring reality warping and controls his molecular constitution. MCU Thanos does not. MCU Thor has not resisted the Casket either. Only Loki could use it because he was a Frost Giant. Heimdall was frozen for minutes to hours before being able to break free. Movie precedent. Movie feats. Why does a sustained and continous frost blast nit do the same to Thanos or Thor? One could argue it may take longer, I guess. And I'm pretty sure Storm can freeze stuff with more Omph than Loki did Heimdall.

[The Arbiter]

What on Earth does 616 Thanos resisting reality warping have to do with Movie versions? Of course 616 ignores being frozen. He has feats of ignoring reality warping and controls his molecular constitution. MCU Thanos does not. MCU Thor has not resisted the Casket either. Only Loki could use it because he was a Frost Giant. Heimdall was frozen for minutes to hours before being able to break free. Movie precedent. Movie feats. Why does a sustained and continous frost blast nit do the same to Thanos or Thor? One could argue it may take longer, I guess. And I'm pretty sure Storm can freeze stuff with more Omph than Loki did Heimdall.

Huh. I... dont know why I argued that. I assumed you were invoking comic characters, but re reading, I have no idea WHY I thought that.

My wires were clearly crossed. Carry on!

[big_adventure]

Isn't this more of a poor showing for Carol than a good showing for Thanos? Carol entered the Earth's upper atmosphere and within a few seconds was already blowing up Thanos's warship and appeared on the battlefield. But somehow can't cross the field in time to get the gauntlet in the van before Thanos threw his blade? The same Carol who scanned an entire planet within a few seconds to determine Thanos was alone. Also, Storm has managed to evade a hammer-toss from both Thor and Clor at shorter distances and has also reacted in time to counter Cyclop's optic beams with either lightning or wind at closer distances. Considering both get basic knowledge of one another prior to the fight, I think Storm would know that Thanos' blade can boomerang and come back at her.

It's just what it is: Carol was clearly going very very quickly at that time. You can plug a speed in that you like. 200mph? 400mph? It's MUCH faster than anyone else is moving in the scene, and much faster than running or most driving or anything like that. It doesn't have to be her top speed to make it still fast, and the fact that she had already passed Thanos when he realized what happened, turned, and threw the blade at AT LEAST 5 or 10 times the speed she's moving. It passes her trivially.

She wasn't traveling anywhere near top speed and the thing was plainly visible to the naked eye.

It was only visible to HER eyes as far as we know, since we were looking from her perspective when it passes her.

So just to be clear.... MCU Thor is a bullet timer?

Don't know where you see that in what I wrote above.

But now that you mention this, I've flat out done the calcs on this for you. MCU Thor has MULTIPLE feats for blocking, with swings, energy bolts that can be counted as somewhere near low-end bullet speeds. And when I say "counted" it's easy: all you have to do is slow it down frame-by-frame. Count the frames that pass. If it takes 2 frames at 30 frames per second to cross 100 feet, well, the speed of the projectile is 1500 feet per second, which is pretty decent bullet speed. If it takes three, it's 1000 fps. If it takes 4, that's 750 fps, which is slow bullet speed. The Destroyer and Chitauri blasts you see Thor bat away WITH SWINGS, not just "position the thing and aim block the thing" are faster then slow bullets. And Thor has never failed to block the things when he tries.

I'm not really willing to bother going further than that, I don't really know that I'd call MCU Thor even a low-end bullet-timer, but he's certainly well above 616 Storm, who isn't even CBPH.

Using Carol's speed as a metric for the speed of the thing is like using Cap's strength as an indicator of Thanos' strength when he stopped him briefly in IW. It's a story, characters job, hence the focus on feats

And Thor dodged it. Like even if it had actually hit him you could say hmm that's impressive (with all the caveats that MCU Thor speed entails) but it didn't even hit him. It's like 616 Surfer dodging a punch from spiderman being used to show Spidermans speed

Otherwise we are now apparently arriving at the conclusion that the Dude moves faster than Carol's best travel speed

No, we aren't. See above. She's moving fast. She's a streaky blur to everyone else around her when she starts that charge. Is it 200mph? 300? It's nowhere near her best speed but it doesn't have to be. Because you can see Thanos' stick moving craploads faster, on a snap throw, with pinpoint accuracy, after it's already been somewhat broken by Wanda.

For Thor's speed, again, dodging things is something he does very well: trivially dodging the Hulk's thrown airplane wing (I think I counted it out as moving at something over 500 feet per second by frame-counting and judging distance very conservatively). Hopping around Surtur like he's Yoda. Dodging and blocking Hela's stuff (speeds there vary, but some are WAY over 1000 fps. It's a thing the guy does. He's got good reactions, and is a fantastic fighter.

True. I guess my point is more like what Dork is saying.

She herself wasn't traveling at "super duper!" speeds. So comparing it to her is not a good benchmark.

See above. I'm not remotely saying that he tosses it at lightspeed or higher or anything idiotic like that. But it's clearly fast, pretty certainly supersonic.

I've seen the film 4 times and watched for that scene closely each of the last three.

[Nik Hasta]

I'm just going to drop in to say that frame counting is not a good way to define the speed of things in fictional media.

There are so many ways that's not kosher.

[The Arbiter]

Aside from super specific instances with Quicksilver, I dont think "watching it from their perspective" has ever been a thing in the MCU.

The Destroyer Armor specifically had 1 second long charge up periods where it's face would glow. It's basically aim dodging/blocking.

I would argue that frame counting is a little... intense and certainly not what anyone making the film had in mind when creating its scenes and trying to establish its heroes power scale.

But hey, Aquaman is now a HIGH END bullet timer based on your frame by frame criteria, so thats cool! :P

[big_adventure]

EDIT: oops

I'm just going to drop in to say that frame counting is not a good way to define the speed of things in fictional media.

There are so many ways that's not kosher.

It's kinda the best we've got, but yeah, I generally agree. For movie enjoyment, I'd not bother. For Rumbles, well, feats are a thing.

With bullets, we can look at the gun and estimate the speed of the slug, even though we can't see them in the air in most cases.

Energy blasts are different: we have no idea how fast they are going because they are purely fictional. Plus, people can see them, and many many people are still stuck on the concept that if you can see something it must be slower than a bullet. But bullets are hard to see because they are small, fast, and don't emit light. Energy blasts in fiction typically DO emit light. The example we can always throw back is tracer rounds: paint some white phosphorus on the bullets, and you can track even very high speed bullets (5.56 and 7.62 NATO, 50 cal) with your eyes.

So... either we don't use energy blasts at all for feats, or we try to quantify them somehow, if it's possible.

[The Arbiter]

It's kinda the best we've got, but yeah, I generally agree. For movie enjoyment, I'd not bother. For Rumbles, well, feats are a thing.

With bullets, we can look at the gun and estimate the speed of the slug, even though we can't see them in the air in most cases.

Energy blasts are different: we have no idea how fast they are going because they are purely fictional. Plus, people can see them, and many many people are still stuck on the concept that if you can see something it must be slower than a bullet. But bullets are hard to see because they are small, fast, and don't emit light. Energy blasts in fiction typically DO emit light. The example we can always throw back is tracer rounds: paint some white phosphorus on the bullets, and you can track even very high speed bullets (5.56 and 7.62 NATO, 50 cal) with your eyes.

So... either we don't use energy blasts at all for feats, or we try to quantify them somehow, if it's possible.

Did... didja mean to quote EVERYONE again? :P

[big_adventure]

Aside from super specific instances with Quicksilver, I dont think "watching it from their perspective" has ever been a thing in the MCU.

The Destroyer Armor specifically had 1 second long charge up periods where it's face would glow. It's basically aim dodging/blocking.

I would argue that frame counting is a little... intense and certainly not what anyone making the film had in mind when creating its scenes and trying to establish its heroes power scale.

But hey, Aquaman is now a HIGH END bullet timer based on your frame by frame criteria, so thats cool! :P

Again, he BATS the thing away after it's fired. Doesn't just block it with the head of the hammer pre-placed.

Second, I say right in the post that I'm not arguing that he's actually even a low-end bullet-timer, just that he's faster than Storm, and that Thanos is faster then Thor.

And...

Thor has at least 6 or 7 scenes doing the block thing, plus numerous dodges of high-speed objects: it's a thing for him. What does AM have with consistency on that level?

[big_adventure]

Did... didja mean to quote EVERYONE again? :P

Damn, must have still had the boxes checked. Sorry :-)

[The Arbiter]

Again, he BATS the thing away after it's fired. Doesn't just block it with the head of the hammer pre-placed.

Second, I say right in the post that I'm not arguing that he's actually even a low-end bullet-timer, just that he's faster than Storm, and that Thanos is faster then Thor.

And...

Thor has at least 6 or 7 scenes doing the block thing, plus numerous dodges of high-speed objects: it's a thing for him. What does AM have with consistency on that level?

Well, why say they are faster than bullets if you dont think that makes him a bullet timer? You just saying it for fun? Like, if you think your argument is sound then go for it.

In the final battle Arthur blocks multiple laser beams from multiple angles. The beams are clearly thinner then Destroyer armor blasts and the weapon Arthur uses to block them is thinner than Mjolnir.

Edit: Arthur has only had 1 solo film so I figure being lenient on consistency is fine.

[Nik Hasta]

EDIT: oops

It's kinda the best we've got, but yeah, I generally agree. For movie enjoyment, I'd not bother. For Rumbles, well, feats are a thing.

With bullets, we can look at the gun and estimate the speed of the slug, even though we can't see them in the air in most cases.

Energy blasts are different: we have no idea how fast they are going because they are purely fictional. Plus, people can see them, and many many people are still stuck on the concept that if you can see something it must be slower than a bullet. But bullets are hard to see because they are small, fast, and don't emit light. Energy blasts in fiction typically DO emit light. The example we can always throw back is tracer rounds: paint some white phosphorus on the bullets, and you can track even very high speed bullets (5.56 and 7.62 NATO, 50 cal) with your eyes.

So... either we don't use energy blasts at all for feats, or we try to quantify them somehow, if it's possible.

I'm going to push back pretty hard on the sentiment that it is in any way "the best we've got," It isn't. At all.

I don't mind people using the tracer argument or whatever, there's at least some grounds for that. If you want to try and leverage energy bolt blocking or whatever as an equivalent to bullet timing, have at it.

Framerate is not a viable metric for measuring the speed of entirely fictional things in film. It's not a consistent thing for the fictional objects themselves. It is not tied to or related to the object itself. Framerate in cinema varies from territory to territory around the world. It doesn't account for ramping in any form.

I get that using energy bolts for feats generally sucks due to them not being real and all but counting frames opens the door for some real bad takes and is full of holes. I just want it on record that it should not be considered as a viable form of argument.

[choptop]

People will say Thanos wins when he does win.

ER not all the time I've seen plenty of thanos wins no matter what in my time.

[theoneandonly]

paunchy and drunk thor is something I think Aaron would love to insert in his thor run before he is done but I don't think that pouncing over anyone's statements where they may have been exaggerating to prove their point or just not being as careful as they should have been is going to help matters. it's not like there is a exact science to rumbles. everyone is interpreting things to the best of their ability and even old posters may occasionally make mistakes so no need to make a federal case out of it.

[Guy1]

Thread Closed.

[Guy1]

I am now reopening the thread.

Everybody get along now.