Frank Castle is a Supervillain: Change my mind!!!!!!!!!

[Triniking1234]

So what Marvel super-villain even has the same modus operandi as The Punisher?

[Michael Watkins]

So what Marvel super-villain even has the same modus operandi as The Punisher?

Cardiac
Foolkiller
Stained-Glass Scarlet
Executioner (young masters of evil version)
Ghost

really, his modus operandi is to stalk and kill people. that could be any of the more kill obsessed villains like Sabretooth or Kraven.

[Midnight_v]

Scourge, the organization, operated under the radar. they hid their identities because they knew what they were doing was criminal. they were using the Punisher's tactics. to highlight that, the Punisher has imitated Scourge more than once. remember Stilt-Man's funeral at the Bar with No Name? Punisher ambushed the people who showed up to the funeral. that was a nod to Scourge. as shown in the Superior Foes of Spider-man book, a lot of supervillains believe that Punisher was Scourge. they can't tell the difference. and i've seen nothing to suggest that the heroes see a difference. Captain Hydra probably didn't see a difference. he used frank in the same way that Fisk used Nuke (another Scourge).

Hmm... honestly I missed that issue. But do I remember when scourge did it.

Thats why I made the statement marvel doesn't agree. Regardless of the fact that I personally don't agree.
Still this is playing into my point. Frank isn't a villain because marvel doesn't count him as one. Period.


They literally have Scourge, and Castle. One is a villian? One is a Anti-hero, who is on the cover of the avengers right now.

I agree with you. There isn't much a difference at all.

You won't let it be a conversation about frank and how we look at good and evil. So its super arbitrary.

Scourge and The Punisher are in practice the same character, I think we can agree.
Yet no one can say why SotU doesn't get team ups with spidey, and wolvie, doc strange, and conan without saying "Its the morality at play".

that's great that you think killing the rapist is a good deed. i simply don't agree. i think the act is wrong either way. would the rapist get the death penalty if they went through the system? are we just talking about mob rule?

**** man. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Do you think a judge is more qualified, even though the system is completely corrupted in the U.S. remember ... brock turner was it? There are judges right now here in the u.s. levying totally disproportionate justice.
Justice is for sale here. Thats not making it more fair for the victims either.

You position makes a lot more sense now though. Its not about mob rule, but I mean the CORE of super-hero comics are ALL about vigilantism.

ALL of them are going beyond what the law allows and we allow it because really... cops can't stop sabertooth, or hydra agent plots. Seems like the line for most people is "killing"
which... I mean. Punisher would have killed the joker theoretically and saved countless lives. Spiderman punching bank robbers breaks bones same a luke cage... its like... I mean
they don't have the societal mandate either.


I guess my last question is. Would you consider Judge Dread a villain? He's the punisher with the full faith and authority of the law on his side to be punishing people with death.

I feel like it has to come down to more than simple "He killed" or "He killed but as a part of a mob" vs "He killed, but the government gave him the authority" I really don't get it.

When wolverine is doing the same think, but for those who do evil to mutants... and of course countless ninjas.

[Triniking1234]

Cardiac
Foolkiller
Stained-Glass Scarlet
Executioner (young masters of evil version)
Ghost

really, his modus operandi is to stalk and kill people. that could be any of the more kill obsessed villains like Sabretooth or Kraven.

Foolkiller checks out but even his (their) actions are still just vigilante madness.

But Ghost is a hired hand and why is Cardiac here?

"his modus operandi is to stalk and kill people"

And there's the false equivalency thing again. Punisher's targets aren't just regular people. They're threats that not even the law enforcement units of the 616 world can deal with and put innocent people in danger.

[Michael Watkins]

Still this is playing into my point. Frank isn't a villain because marvel doesn't count him as one. Period.

except in his first appearance, right?

They literally have Scourge, and Castle. One is a villian? One is a Anti-hero, who is on the cover of the avengers right now.

we both know that this isn't definitive proof of anything. the Avengers have recruited some questionable individuals. and they've also slapped the avengers label on a number of line-ups because it sells better.

Scourge and The Punisher are in practice the same character, I think we can agree.
Yet no one can say why SotU doesn't get team ups with spidey, and wolvie, doc strange, and conan without saying "Its the morality at play".

i'll take a shot at it. the Punisher is marketable. he makes marvel money. his brand is strong. his emblem looks good no a t-shirt. there are a bunch of "morally naive" individuals who consider the Punisher to be their personal hero. he's wish fullfillment for people carrying a lot of internal fear and rage. i'm sure that George Zimmerman's a Punisher fan.

**** man. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Do you think a judge is more qualified, even though the system is completely corrupted in the U.S. remember ... brock turner was it? There are judges right now here in the u.s. levying totally disproportionate justice.
Justice is for sale here. Thats not making it more fair for the victims either.

the corruption is due to human weakness. there are people with agenda who ascend to the bench. there are dirty cops who plant evidence because, in their heart, they know that the person they are putting away is guilty of something. there are cops and judges who generally think the world is a better place if minorities are behind bars. that kind of thinking isn't all that different from the Punisher's. he thinks of himself as infallible. he thinks that what he is doing is fair and that everyone else has it wrong. it's that arrogance that makes him a villain. he appointed himself to determine the value of life. as bad as the system is, it's better than Frank Castle. he's a loon with delusions of grandeur. he just has better marketing on his side.

You position makes a lot more sense now though. Its not about mob rule, but I mean the CORE of super-hero comics are ALL about vigilantism.

yes. and i accept that. but i don't pretend that what they do is morally superior to what we already have in place. Daredevil habitual lying and anger issues don't make him less of a character in my eyes. i accept him flaws and all. same with the Punisher. the idea that Hulk unconsciously avoids hurting innocents is b*llsh*t. it's a blankie for Hulk fans who can't handle being fans of a destructive monster. when someone tries to convince me that Frank is just an anti-hero, that's the argument that i hear. they can't handle that the Punisher is a sociopath who doesn't really want to move on from the trauma of his family being taken away from him. he enjoys being good at something. and what he's good at is murder.

ALL of them are going beyond what the law allows and we allow it because really... cops can't stop sabertooth, or hydra agent plots. Seems like the line for most people is "killing"
which... I mean. Punisher would have killed the joker theoretically and saved countless lives.

that picture of him standing over Joker was one of the results of my google search.

I guess my last question is. Would you consider Judge Dread a villain? He's the punisher with the full faith and authority of the law on his side to be punishing people with death.

i don't know enough about Dredd to judge. from my perspective, he's a parody of the Punisher. he was given authority by a fascist regime, right? that makes him the equivalent of Punisher during Secret Empire. that was very much a villain event.

[Michael Watkins]

Foolkiller checks out but even his (their) actions are still just vigilante madness.

i'm not seeing a difference

But Ghost is a hired hand

not when written in character. his agenda is similar to Castle's. his target is "evil corporations" instead of organized crime figures. he admitted to accepting money for industrial sabotage because he doesn't want to be seen as insane.

and why is Cardiac here?

i guess he can be excluded because he has demonstrated guilt over killing criminals. but the pathology is the same.

"his modus operandi is to stalk and kill people"

And there's the false equivalency thing again. Punisher's targets aren't just regular people. They're threats that not even the law enforcement units of the 616 world can deal with and put innocent people in danger.

threats is a broad term. were are all of the people Punisher has killed in the process of threatening someone?

[Triniking1234]

The writers of Castle's stories already establish what his targets' criminal deeds are.

[Michael Watkins]

The writers of Castle's stories already establish what his targets' criminal deeds are.

sounds kind of mary sue-ish.

[Triniking1234]

Establishing that the bad guy is a bad guy is not how Mary Sue stories work.

[Michael Watkins]

Establishing that the bad guy is a bad guy is not how Mary Sue stories work.

reworking reality so that you never get it wrong is.

[ed2962]

Hmm...this thread got kinda weird...


Anyway, I agree with what some of the other posters said early on, Frank's been written as both. It really just depends on if he's a support character or not and who's writing him. It's not about whether or not he kills but why and under what conditions and if the narrative sees it as justified or not.

[WebLurker]

This "Frank Castle is a villain" offense relies to heavily on playing the victim card on the people the Punisher guns down. I dunno what Punisher books these guys grew up on but 99% of the frauds were irredeemable monsters.

It's not a question of whether they deserve it, but whether Punisher has the right to execute them. He certainly does not legally, and his moral code shows him willing to murder surrendered enemies (always considered a crime whether it be in law enforcement or war) and children (see Runaways, where he tried to murder the titular teens despite the fact that they were children and their crime was not a hanging offense). These are not the actions of a hero, but an unrepentant villain who's about as monstrous as the people he systematically slaughters.

And what's this "those poor henchmen" and "people can change" BS? So you think when a cop has to defend themselves they run the numbers as to whether the guy trying to shoot them can turn their life around if they have the chance. No. I'm pretty sure it's shoot them before they shoot me. Other heroes do it too. So I'm not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden when Frank does it.

There is a difference between heat of the battle (like most other heroes) or when they have authorization to use lethal force if need be (e.g. Avengers when backed by S.H.I.E.L.D. or the like) and systematically hunting down people with the express purpose to murder them.

Hmm...this thread got kinda weird...


Anyway, I agree with what some of the other posters said early on, Frank's been written as both. It really just depends on if he's a support character or not and who's writing him. It's not about whether or not he kills but why and under what conditions and if the narrative sees it as justified or not.

That's probably fair. Plenty of characters do vary a bit in how different writers use them.

[regg215]

To be honest I have never really understood all the overreacting to the punisher in Superhero comics. If any real person put on a costume that was colorful like Spider-man and fought crime that person no matter how noble in intent would ultimately get arrested or sued in civil court and trashed in the media for stepping on civil liberties of the criminals he stops, yet very few criticize the idea of someone acting like Spider-man in the comics because we accept that it is a fictional world. Yet with the Punisher we treat him as if he exists in the real world and judge him by that. Especially with marvel characters where except for a few exceptions,most of the main universe heroes kill or have killed, spidey and Daredevil are the only two where not killing seems to be a part of the character. DC seems to have a bigger focus on not killing since the majority of their characters tend to abide by a no kill rule but marvel has never really focused on that. It just always seems weird to me that most marvel characters happily team up with hulk, wolverine, elektra, venom, deadpool and Ghost rider yet castle shows up and everyone jumps on their high horse and calls him a villain. Punisher is not one of the most noble or heroic in the marvel universe and if he existed in the real world he absolutely would be a terrifying person who would rightfully be called a villain but in a marvel universe where the avengers and x-men happily trot out wolverine, x-23, and deadpool as heroes the overreaction to punisher is kinda weird in my opinion.

[WebLurker]

To be honest I have never really understood all the overreacting to the punisher in Superhero comics. If any real person put on a costume that was colorful like Spider-man and fought crime that person no matter how noble in intent would ultimately get arrested or sued in civil court and trashed in the media for stepping on civil liberties of the criminals he stops, yet very few criticize the idea of someone acting like Spider-man in the comics because we accept that it is a fictional world. Yet with the Punisher we treat him as if he exists in the real world and judge him by that. Especially with marvel characters where except for a few exceptions,most of the main universe heroes kill or have killed, spidey and Daredevil are the only two where not killing seems to be a part of the character. DC seems to have a bigger focus on not killing since the majority of their characters tend to abide by a no kill rule but marvel has never really focused on that. It just always seems weird to me that most marvel characters happily team up with hulk, wolverine, elektra, venom, deadpool and Ghost rider yet castle shows up and everyone jumps on their high horse and calls him a villain. Punisher is not one of the most noble or heroic in the marvel universe and if he existed in the real world he absolutely would be a terrifying person who would rightfully be called a villain but in a marvel universe where the avengers and x-men happily trot out wolverine, x-23, and deadpool as heroes the overreaction to punisher is kinda weird in my opinion.

Fair point about stuff in fiction not always working in real life. My take on it is that most superheroes seem to more or less perform citizen's arrests, hence why it seems more okay then a guy who's who m.o. is to hunt down people for the express purpose of murdering them.

As far as why other characters with blood on their hands are treated differently, probably a combination of factors In regards to some of the specific examples, my understanding is that Deadpool is generally not considered a hero of any kind and that Wolverine kinda suffers from inconsistent writing in terms of how bloodthirsty he is (and a key point of the character is that he is a fallen hero of sorts). X-23 probably isn't the best example, given that most of her killing days came from a time when she didn't have any agency to say no (not counting the retcon that she resisted the programming and training when the rare opportunity presented itself), but her main story arc has been her rejecting this past and intent to become someone who's not a killer. Conversely, Punisher chose to be a serial killer and has never shown remorse for that or any indication that he wants to stop his murder spree.

[Killerbee911]

They were Hydra agents. Frank knew what they were when he killed them.

If you join A.I.M, Hydra, ISIS, the Klu Klux Clan, or the Maggia... you literally get no sympathy .

.
"HYDRA is a terrorist organization. You're terrorists." F--- You.

Castle gunning down employees of an evil corporation still doesn't make him a super-villain.
.

Oh no. He shot some guys who provided work to an evil organization who 101% likely used that work for evil and filled some villains with lead.

Punisher is literally an argument against his own existence.