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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Cute people are going gray area with Castle to defend him but they forget in doing so they open his victims to same treatment. Punisher is villian pure and simple, Punisher doesn't not take time to tell the difference between lifelong criminal who will never change and silly henchmen who is going go to jail for 6 months on because it was his first offence and never do crime again. Punisher( and Wolverine to be fair) regularly kill guards and henchmen who shouldn't die. With Wolverine at least it is uneven writing to blame, with Punisher that is what he does there is literally pic in here from Civil War where Punisher says they were Thieves and Killer. Punisher is fine with killing someone who steals.

    I am perfectly fine with Punisher killing but what makes him villain and not antihero like say Wolverine (when correctly written) is that Wolverine is fine with violent criminals being put in jail, Wolverine will not just slaughter every criminal like they are all the same. Before the made a Punisher show, I would describe Punisher show as a "Superhero Dexter" show and I realize now that is incorrect because Dexter is actual antihero and Punisher is much worse. Dexter actually selective picks his victims who deserve to die and no innocents get killed. Punisher frequently kills people who aren't murders,rapist,etc aka crimes that hurt directly people. Punisher kills the stupid person who joins a gang because their friends are in it,Punisher kills person who grew up poor thinks that gang life is the only life. Punisher kills people who would sit in jail for 5 or 10 years who won't go back to crime. That is why Punisher is a villian.

  2. #92
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Cute people are going gray area with Castle to defend him but they forget in doing so they open his victims to same treatment. Punisher is villian pure and simple, Punisher doesn't not take time to tell the difference between lifelong criminal who will never change and silly henchmen who is going go to jail for 6 months on because it was his first offence and never do crime again. Punisher( and Wolverine to be fair) regularly kill guards and henchmen who shouldn't die. With Wolverine at least it is uneven writing to blame, with Punisher that is what he does there is literally pic in here from Civil War where Punisher says they were Thieves and Killer. Punisher is fine with killing someone who steals.

    I am perfectly fine with Punisher killing but what makes him villain and not antihero like say Wolverine (when correctly written) is that Wolverine is fine with violent criminals being put in jail, Wolverine will not just slaughter every criminal like they are all the same. Before the made a Punisher show, I would describe Punisher show as a "Superhero Dexter" show and I realize now that is incorrect because Dexter is actual antihero and Punisher is much worse. Dexter actually selective picks his victims who deserve to die and no innocents get killed. Punisher frequently kills people who aren't murders,rapist,etc aka crimes that hurt directly people. Punisher kills the stupid person who joins a gang because their friends are in it,Punisher kills person who grew up poor thinks that gang life is the only life. Punisher kills people who would sit in jail for 5 or 10 years who won't go back to crime. That is why Punisher is a villian.
    If you think Punisher doesn't do his homework or just walks around killing people without studying them and planning then you don't know The Punisher.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  3. #93
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    If you think Punisher doesn't do his homework or just walks around killing people without studying them and planning then you don't know The Punisher.
    So punisher did his homework on all the Hydra agents that he killed in the current run? Please stop Punisher kills henchmen with no care for their rehabilitation. Punisher is guilt by association you work for evil person and you are trying to stop me you will die. We all know those people don't need to die regardless of who they work for at the time.

  4. #94
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    So punisher did his homework on all the Hydra agents that he killed in the current run? Please stop Punisher kills henchmen with no care for their rehabilitation. Punisher is guilt by association you work for evil person and you are trying to stop me you will die. We all know those people don't need to die regardless of who they work for at the time.
    They were Hydra agents. Frank knew what they were when he killed them. I'm stating facts. Frank is an anti hero. He does more saving of innocents than any villain I've ever seen.
    Does this not sound like Frank. The very definition.https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/antihero
    Last edited by Tony Stark; 05-08-2019 at 03:02 AM.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  5. #95
    Fantastic Member catbellysqueezer's Avatar
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    I can understand why people like the Frank Castle, and Cosmic Ghost Rider is one of my favorite characters, but if you think he is a good person you have to admit that you are wrong:

    Baby Thanos

  6. #96
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbellysqueezer View Post
    I can understand why people like the Frank Castle, and Cosmic Ghost Rider is one of my favorite characters, but if you think he is a good person you have to admit that you are wrong:

    I'm not in any way saying he's a good person. I'm saying he's an anti hero.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
    They were Hydra agents. Frank knew what they were when he killed them. I'm stating facts. Frank is an anti hero. He does more saving of innocents than any villain I've ever seen.
    Does this not sound like Frank. The very definition.https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/antihero
    What were they harden criminals who were never going to change or family man who made the wrong decisions. You can't play the gray area with Frank alone, his victims must get the same benefit of the doubt. Once they are Hydra,Aim,Hand,Mobster,Gang member they are 100% bad right?

    Punisher only gets to be antihero if you can justify that person he killed deserve it. Indiscriminately killing bad guys just because who they work for makes Castle a villian. We don't kill everyone who commits a crime because people can change and not every crime is means you should die. Punisher will kill villains who give up and want to go jail for their crimes. Punisher is a villain because he doesn't believe that jail is enough punishment so he kills people and not let the justice system do its job.

    A person who kills someone who doesn't deserve to die is a Villian.

    Kill Hydra agents/Mobsters who are attacking you- Antihero

    Kill Hydra agents/Mobsters who are give up and willing to go jail- Villain

    Villain from the same place

    wicked or evil person; someone who does evil deliberately
    Check.Killing bad guys instead of letting them go to jail is deliberate evil

    the principal bad character in a film or work of fiction
    Check.Avengers, Shield, Police with regularity try to arrest him. He is the bad guy in most situation

    There is a line that can be crossed, A person who take over earth by force and then force all crime to stop is what? A person who drop Nuke on a country before other army attacks but kills millions of civilians but in process saves billions is what? You snap half the universe away to balance it against resource loss you are what? Person who wipes a crime family because if he only killed the head of crime family someone else would take over is what? Antiheroes can cross over into villain territory and when you keep repeating the action that does that out you there what are we supposed to call them?
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 05-08-2019 at 04:45 AM.

  8. #98
    IRON MAN Tony Stark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    What were they harden criminals who were never going to change or family man who made the wrong decisions. You can't play the gray area with Frank alone, his victims must get the same benefit of the doubt. Once they are Hydra,Aim,Hand,Mobster,Gang member they are 100% bad right?

    Punisher only gets to be antihero if you can justify that person he killed deserve it. Indiscriminately killing bad guys just because who they work for makes Castle a villian. We don't kill everyone who commits a crime because people can change and not every crime is means you should die. Punisher will kill villains who give up and want to go jail for their crimes. Punisher is a villain because he doesn't believe that jail is enough punishment so he kills people and not let the justice system do its job.

    A person who kills someone who doesn't deserve to die is a Villian.

    Kill Hydra agents/Mobsters who are attacking you- Antihero

    Kill Hydra agents/Mobsters who are give up and willing to go jail- Villain

    Villain from the same place



    Check.Killing bad guys instead of letting them go to jail is deliberate evil



    Check.Avengers, Shield, Police with regularity try to arrest him. He is the bad guy in most situation

    There is a line that can be crossed, A person who take over earth by force and then force all crime to stop is what? A person who drop Nuke on a country before other army attacks but kills millions of civilians but in process saves billions is what? You snap half the universe away to balance it against resource loss you are what? Person who wipes a crime family because if he only killed the head of crime family someone else would take over is what? Antiheroes can cross over into villain territory and when you keep repeating the action that does that out you there what are we supposed to call them?
    I'll go by what I've read and the actual definition of anti hero.
    " I've learned that free will isn't a gift-it's muscle that needs to be exercised-and only when it's in peak condition-is a man truly awake" TONY STARK

  9. #99
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    This "Frank Castle is a villain" offense relies to heavily on playing the victim card on the people the Punisher guns down. I dunno what Punisher books these guys grew up on but 99% of the frauds were irredeemable monsters.

    And what's this "those poor henchmen" and "people can change" BS? So you think when a cop has to defend themselves they run the numbers as to whether the guy trying to shoot them can turn their life around if they have the chance. No. I'm pretty sure it's shoot them before they shoot me. Other heroes do it too. So I'm not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden when Frank does it.
    "Cable was right!"

  10. #100
    Genesis of A Nemesis Things Fall Apart's Avatar
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    Didn't Punisher kill that woman in Fraction's run, basically as a means to keep his cover?
    Pull List:

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    DC Comics: The Green Lantern, Legion of Super-Heroes: Millenium/Ongoing.

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  11. #101
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    This "Frank Castle is a villain" offense relies to heavily on playing the victim card on the people the Punisher guns down. I dunno what Punisher books these guys grew up on but 99% of the frauds were irredeemable monsters.

    And what's this "those poor henchmen" and "people can change" BS? So you think when a cop has to defend themselves they run the numbers as to whether the guy trying to shoot them can turn their life around if they have the chance. No. I'm pretty sure it's shoot them before they shoot me. Other heroes do it too. So I'm not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden when Frank does it.
    “Hypocrisy is the audacity to preach integrity from a den of corruption.”
    — Wes Fesler

    Oooh... punisher killed begging A.I.M. agents.

    On AIM
    Advanced Idea Mechanics (A.I.M.) is a privately funded think tank organized of a group of brilliant scientists whose sole dedication is to acquire and develop power through technological means. Their goal is to use this power to overthrow the governments of the world. They supply arms and technology to radicals and subversive organizations in order to foster a violent technological revolution of society while making a profit.
    Advanced Idea Mechanics--- an organized group of international science-terrorists. You know, like one of those Japanese techno-apocalypse cults? They recruit the kinda brilliant geeks and brainy outsiders who want revenge for not getting any booty...
    A.I.M. first began during World War II when Baron von Strucker organized a group of brilliant scientists whose sole dedication was to acquire and develop power through technological means
    Literally group started as the Science Branch of the super nazi's.

    If you join A.I.M, Hydra, ISIS, the Klu Klux Clan, or the Maggia... you literally get no sympathy when Venom eats you, Blade guts you, or Frank shoots you in the face.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    This "Frank Castle is a villain" offense relies to heavily on playing the victim card on the people the Punisher guns down. I dunno what Punisher books these guys grew up on but 99% of the frauds were irredeemable monsters.

    And what's this "those poor henchmen" and "people can change" BS? So you think when a cop has to defend themselves they run the numbers as to whether the guy trying to shoot them can turn their life around if they have the chance. No. I'm pretty sure it's shoot them before they shoot me. Other heroes do it too. So I'm not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden when Frank does it.
    Nice try but the job of a cop is to bring criminals to justice without killing if they can. If a cop can bring in someone who has committed a crime even someone who has shot at them and try to kill, The cop is bringing them in without killing them. Cops are justified in using the force brought against that means if a cop feels you are going to kill them they have the right to protect themselves with the same force. While it is possible to bring in criminals without killing nobody is really talking about Punisher defending himself or killing in the act of combat even though it deserved to mention that even people firing at him don't necessarily deserve to be killed. Once again the problem is the Punisher killing people when another form of punishment can be given to the person.

    I have no problems with heroes killing, I have no problem with antiheroes. I think it is stupid that comics put the default morality of heroes as "Heroes don't kill". BUT There is a line you can cross that is what is being talked about, Literally, 4 or 5 post up there Punisher killing AIM members who didn't need to be killed. Punisher regularly killed people who should just go to jail and that cross the line. It is not just Punisher alone Wolverine, Venom, Deadpool, Cable, X-23, etc all occasional cross the line into villain territory hence "anti" part of the name. What makes them different those guys at times will leave lesser offenders alive to be put in jail. At times even "irredeemable monsters" as well. Punisher kills them all because a dead criminal can't hurt anyone and killing is 100% percent way to make sure they never commit another crime. Wolverine in last week Uncanny hunted down a group frat boys who killed Rahne, They were five guys in the room Wolverine let one of them go because they weren't involved in the killing. That is the difference between Antihero and Villian. You guys are saying that guy should die because he was associated with aholes. Everybody who joins Hydra, AIM, or even Isis is evil and should die. Criminal groups never manipulate people in bad situations into joining them. A stupid kid rebelling against their parents should die because Isis sold them on Isis being a family and tricked them.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 05-08-2019 at 07:03 AM.

  13. #103
    Incredible Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    The problem is that after the last 20 years, almost all major Marvel character are anti-heroes. Who have the moral right to call out Frank Castle? Cyclops? Wolverine? Iron Man? Honestly, I don't think The Punisher really works on the MU, I prefer the MAX version where his existence don't threat the very concept of superheroes.

  14. #104
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I brought the cop's action because when a cop kills a scumbag the general consensus is that the cop was right because the guy was a scumbag. The only people who comes to the scumbag's defense are their kin. It's only a problem when Castle does it because he doesn't have a badge and doesn't take survivors. However, we call people like that in fiction 'vigilantes'; not 'super-villains'.

    Also you all keep saying Castle is indiscriminate in his actions and goes after ALL criminals. I don't see him going after ticket scammers and tax evaders. He goes after people on Al Capone's level who the normal police will have trouble bringing to justice.

    "Everybody who joins Hydra, AIM, or even Isis is evil and should die. Criminal groups never manipulate people in bad situations into joining them. A stupid kid rebelling against their parents should die because Isis sold them on Isis being a family and tricked them."

    The people are still punishable for their actions since they did bad things under these groups whether they were forced to join or not. You don't get a free pass for what could've been. So Castle is justified for killing these people.
    "Cable was right!"

  15. #105
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    I agree OP. He straddles the line between anti-hero and villain but I think more often than not, he's a villain
    DC, hurry up and make your own version of Marvel Unlimited!

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