Frank Castle is a Supervillain: Change my mind!!!!!!!!!

[DevilBat66]

I read some Punisher stories here and there. I've read a bunch of guest appearances even watched all of his Netflix series. But I just can't think of him as a hero/anti-hero... In my mind Frank Castle is an outright supervillian. Am I alone in this?

Nope. Totally agree and have always thought of him as a villain.

I still enjoy his stories and think he's cool, but, he's a villain.

[ETMike1988]

Frank Castle must wear spandex again!!!! Change my mind!!!!

[Ptrvc]

Frank Castle must wear spandex again!!!! Change my mind!!!!

Even if the party that apprehends the criminal has nothing to do with said criminal once they enter the judicial system for trial, sentencing and confinement? Do you expect them to also guard the people they apprehend?

Firstly, costumed vigilantes aren't cops, secondly the judicial system of the MU is affectively worthless as are the correctional systems. At least as far as superhumans are concerned.

Lastly, with great power comes great responsibility. One caveat behind the superhero genre is that it takes a super to deal with a super.

But the vast majority of them aren't willing to commit to a solution of any kind of permanency with regards to their rogues gallery.

Comparing the relationship between say, Spider-Man and the Green Goblin, or Batman and the Joker, to a police officer and a criminal they brought in is practically nonsensical. It's not a valid analogy.

[The Cool Thatguy]

In many ways Frank Castle is a better hero than your average Cape. He tries to do something to solve the whole super-powered killer thing besides putting them in a box and waiting for them to break out yet again.

Maybe you're typical Thor, Iron-Man, Captain Marvel is okay with the piles of dead civilians as long as they can stand on top of them, in sunlight and public adoration?

Just a thought.

Good point. I mean, I think we all know that killing a character means that they will never, ever return.

Just like Magneto!

[Ptrvc]

Frank Castle must wear spandex again!!!! Change my mind!!!!

Good point. I mean, I think we all know that killing a character means that they will never, ever return.

Just like Magneto!

True.

Which is why I said he *tries*.

Of course if death is meaningless in comics then all Frank is really doing is saving the public the tax burden of trials and incarcerations.

That's Frank. Always thinking about the little guy!

[The Cool Thatguy]

True.

Which is why I said he *tries*.

Of course if death is meaningless in comics then all Frank is really doing is saving the public the tax burden of trials and incarcerations.

That's Frank. Always thinking about the little guy!

The only villain that Frank's put down for good (thus far) has been Stilt Man.

Not seeing the savings...

[Michael Watkins]

Good point. I mean, I think we all know that killing a character means that they will never, ever return.

Just like Magneto!

when was Magneto killed? not even intending to be argumentative.

[Ptrvc]

The only villain that Frank's put down for good (thus far) has been Stilt Man.

Not seeing the savings...

So instead of the cost of trial, amenities, and a giant plastic prison that follows an arrest, killing Magneto just means a burial, (paid for by his acolytes.)

He still comes back six months later, but with significantly less money drained from the public coffers.

[Michael Watkins]

His own words show that when he struck back he was just pushing her away. It would be different if he had said, "Now die you meddling brat"

runs counter to your claim that it was self-defense. defense against what? a "tantrum?" and he was struck only after he attacked someone. this all happened because he was taking advantage of an amnesic woman.

And those aren't Doom's thoughts in that Avengers World story. Obviously it is the narrator/writer describing the scene.

who would know better than the narrator?

And for this case "cold blooded murder" doesn't fit the narrative of the panel where Cassie is on top of Doom and he warns her to "rein in her tantrum" BEFORE he loses his temper.

it wasn't a warning. there wasn't a pause after the word 'temper.' he incinerated her and ran away; to further indicate guilt. and we didn't see any sort of guilt come into play until he was morally inverted. in other words, his actions didn't bother him. so you can't say that he made a mistake. you can't say that it was in self-defense. so what's left?

No one on the scene that day even realized she was dealt a mortal blow until the fight was over.

there was no fight. he killed her and ran. they are all in shock. they probably didn't realize that Doom was such a monster. they aren't sure where he disappeared to or how to follow him. they are also waiting for Scott's reaction.

They were all standing around talking about whether or not they should they should do anything about it. And they didn't pursue Doom

how would you pursue someone who used magic to flee?

[Gurz]

we are all bunch of villains

[Michael Watkins]

we are all bunch of villains

i'm chaotically neutral

[Gurz]

i'm chaotically neutral

the best villains don't know they are the villains...

[Midnight_v]

Ok. Lets change your mind.

The reason people have the feeling that Punisher is a Supervillian. Is generally because they have limited knowledge of morality and ethics.

There are lots of people who will give you with absolute conviction lot of moral proselytization, but who have never studied the topic of good and evil
out side of Superman, Batman, Spidey, and Cap.

They will look at you stupidly when you start talking about Immanuel Kant, or David Hume, so I'm going to suggest Pyrrhonism is the real answer to the question at hand.

Pyrrhonism holds that good and evil do not exist by nature, meaning that good and evil do not exist within the things themselves. All judgments of good and evil are relative to the one doing the judging.

And most of us are judging from the position of ignorance... Ironic in the most idiotic time in the world where cultural relativism is at its highest, that almost no one even knows the word Pyrrhonism.
I'm assuming that most people slept through first year philosophy, much less went beyond that in school or cared enough to self study on the topic.

Only the most MORALLY NAIVE people believe that all killing is wrong. That being said... not all of it is right and moral, but the problem with view typically lies in you.

You are no more right, you have no more moral authority than the people in countries that cut a mans hand off when he steals something. The idea that "HE KILLS the BAD GUYS" is just as morally naive as "NEVER KILL, ROBIN!", is the same "type" of naivety as the old west's quote "He needed a killin".
You, or your family, since you're on a computer debating comics are probably in the top earners in the world. Very protected by the society you grew up in, never had to boil water to keep out parasites never had to kill anything to eat.

Therefore... the morals most of us are using (unless they endured some great hardship or tragedy) are set to: what would likely be looked at as:

Princess morality. Abhor that which you think is "Icky" or makes you "Feel bad, man". . .

Most of use are set to that, because we've NEVER had to make a daily life or death decision, and hardly had any hardships at all compared to the OTHER portion of people in the world.

The truth is. If youre in the western world. Then "YOU" operate under a legal system that is broken. Most of us KNOW its broken. Yet, simply lack the "Power" and mostly the "Motivation" to do anything about it.
Wealth buys you more justice, Race, religion, gender, determine often just how much justice you are likely to get at ANY given moment.
So super heroes are every-single-one products of the fact that the "SYSTEM" doesn't work.

Especially, in comics where there are Persons of Mass Destruction, and one person, is more powerful that the military might of your entire country. Yet people still
call 9-11 when Electro for example shows up at the bank.

Even if we go by comic book morality this thread is obviating the obvious answer:
The punisher is an Anit-hero which is even is a commentary on "Methods" and how they matter when it comes to Costumed vigilantism.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SyvXlEV-2z...s1600/hero.png

TL;DR: The punisher isn't a Super-Hero.
Most of us don't understand morality very; we ignored it in school; and were raised with the morality of a disney princess ourselves, so it reinforces our ignorance.
The hate he gets from people stem from moral rigidity, and who want to think the version of good and evil they use is the only/undisputed version.
The Punisher isn't a "Villain" either. He's an Anit-hero. These are words that have meaning in our language. Especially, in the comic book medium.
So we should at least hold the traits and characteristics of each up to the light when making such a claim. Instead of "... the feeling" he give each of us individually.

[DevilBat66]

The Punisher is a psychopath and a serial killer. He's a pre-meditated murderer.

That's a villain. Not an anti-hero.

[Snoop Dogg]

Netflix Punisher is actually not a supervillain, but an anti-hero spoilers:

even though at the end he does a normal Punisher thing those guys drew weapons before he made a move

end of spoilers, because in those seasons he isn't randomly hunting people for the sake of killing, he is initially going after very specific people for revenge and then using killing as a method of dealing with larger problems, often when he is attacked first and he frequently shows mercy. Frank in the books is not a creature of passion or someone who wants to do good but uses deadly force, but a machine who coldly and with pre-meditated precision hunts and murders whoever he deems unworthy of life even if he doesn't have to in order to stop their crime because he's decided that he can and he should.

And people were surprised when someone with such an ego openly worked for fascists because someone he respected offered him full authority to do what he does normally. There was also the bait of fixing his life with the cube, but I see him joining Hydra anyway.