Frank Castle is a Supervillain: Change my mind!!!!!!!!!

[Jabare]

Netflix Punisher isn't the traditionally portrayed Punisher. Frankly, neither is the 2004 Punisher because tv and movie show writers understand that in order to make this guy a viable protagonist to a mass audience he can't be a complete psychopath

[Daniel22]

I don't know... if he killed the person who murdered my sister I doubt he'd seem very villainous. Killing a child molester so he can't molest anyone else seems pretty heroic. He puts himself above the law but so do all the costumed folk. When he thought he killed an innocent (both in the comics and on the tv show) he was suicidal and/or gave himself up to the cops.

[Michael Watkins]

I don't know... if he killed the person who murdered my sister I doubt he'd seem very villainous. Killing a child molester so he can't molest anyone else seems pretty heroic. He puts himself above the law but so do all the costumed folk. When he thought he killed an innocent (both in the comics and on the tv show) he was suicidal and/or gave himself up to the cops.

What if your sister got caught in the crossfire of the Punisher and his prey?

[Michael Watkins]

Ok. Lets change your mind.

The reason people have the feeling that Punisher is a Supervillian. Is generally because they have limited knowledge of morality and ethics.

There are lots of people who will give you with absolute conviction lot of moral proselytization, but who have never studied the topic of good and evil
out side of Superman, Batman, Spidey, and Cap.

They will look at you stupidly when you start talking about Immanuel Kant, or David Hume, so I'm going to suggest Pyrrhonism is the real answer to the question at hand.

Pyrrhonism holds that good and evil do not exist by nature, meaning that good and evil do not exist within the things themselves. All judgments of good and evil are relative to the one doing the judging.

And most of us are judging from the position of ignorance... Ironic in the most idiotic time in the world where cultural relativism is at its highest, that almost no one even knows the word Pyrrhonism.
I'm assuming that most people slept through first year philosophy, much less went beyond that in school or cared enough to self study on the topic.

Only the most MORALLY NAIVE people believe that all killing is wrong. That being said... not all of it is right and moral, but the problem with view typically lies in you.

You are no more right, you have no more moral authority than the people in countries that cut a mans hand off when he steals something. The idea that "HE KILLS the BAD GUYS" is just as morally naive as "NEVER KILL, ROBIN!", is the same "type" of naivety as the old west's quote "He needed a killin".
You, or your family, since you're on a computer debating comics are probably in the top earners in the world. Very protected by the society you grew up in, never had to boil water to keep out parasites never had to kill anything to eat.

Therefore... the morals most of us are using (unless they endured some great hardship or tragedy) are set to: what would likely be looked at as:

Princess morality. Abhor that which you think is "Icky" or makes you "Feel bad, man". . .

Most of use are set to that, because we've NEVER had to make a daily life or death decision, and hardly had any hardships at all compared to the OTHER portion of people in the world.

The truth is. If youre in the western world. Then "YOU" operate under a legal system that is broken. Most of us KNOW its broken. Yet, simply lack the "Power" and mostly the "Motivation" to do anything about it.
Wealth buys you more justice, Race, religion, gender, determine often just how much justice you are likely to get at ANY given moment.
So super heroes are every-single-one products of the fact that the "SYSTEM" doesn't work.

Especially, in comics where there are Persons of Mass Destruction, and one person, is more powerful that the military might of your entire country. Yet people still
call 9-11 when Electro for example shows up at the bank.

Even if we go by comic book morality this thread is obviating the obvious answer:
The punisher is an Anit-hero which is even is a commentary on "Methods" and how they matter when it comes to Costumed vigilantism.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SyvXlEV-2z...s1600/hero.png

TL;DR: The punisher isn't a Super-Hero.
Most of us don't understand morality very; we ignored it in school; and were raised with the morality of a disney princess ourselves, so it reinforces our ignorance.
The hate he gets from people stem from moral rigidity, and who want to think the version of good and evil they use is the only/undisputed version.
The Punisher isn't a "Villain" either. He's an Anit-hero. These are words that have meaning in our language. Especially, in the comic book medium.
So we should at least hold the traits and characteristics of each up to the light when making such a claim. Instead of "... the feeling" he give each of us individually.

Naw. He's a villain.

[Daniel22]

What if your sister got caught in the crossfire of the Punisher and his prey?

He's never killed an innocent. I know it's ridiculous and would never happen "in real life" but...comics.

[Midnight_v]

Naw. He's a villain.

So... you're argument is "Nu-uh". Okay.

Nu-uh x 3000.

Since its clown time.

[Iron Maiden]

runs counter to your claim that it was self-defense. defense against what? a "tantrum?" and he was struck only after he attacked someone. this all happened because he was taking advantage of an amnesic woman.

Cassie attacked after she thought her father was killed after his attack against Doom failed. This was after the Avengers and various X-Men engaged in an all out battle after declining Victor's offer to be whatever, the guardian/god of the planet.

....and Wanda said still would have agreed to the marriage after her memory was restored if Victor had given up the Life Force 's power, which she warned him had corrupted her and would do the same to him. But he didn't believe her.

who would know better than the narrator?

Nick Spencer did not write the Children's Crusade. He was putting his own spin on it. Heinberg is not that definitive in assigning guilt. In fact no one in the story makes an accusation of murder. Iron Lad proposed to restore her the same way that her father was restored to life and take Cassie into the timestream to a point before her death. But everyone turned down that idea.

it wasn't a warning. there wasn't a pause after the word 'temper.' he incinerated her and ran away; to further indicate guilt. and we didn't see any sort of guilt come into play until he was morally inverted. in other words, his actions didn't bother him. so you can't say that he made a mistake. you can't say that it was in self-defense. so what's left?

Again, you are getting the scene wrong. Doom doesn't run away. Instead he sees that Wiccan and Wanda are opening a portal with the hope that they can put the power that is starting to consume Doom. Doom starts to revert back to his normal power levels as the Life Force power leaves him. He doesn't run away but just sort of disappears or perhaps teleports.

there was no fight. he killed her and ran. they are all in shock. they probably didn't realize that Doom was such a monster. they aren't sure where he disappeared to or how to follow him. they are also waiting for Scott's reaction.

*sighs* the things you post cast doubt on whether or not you read the story or you're just going by some vague memory.

There most definitely was a big, chaotic fight with multiple combatants. Wanda's attempt to send the power back from where it came just resulted in Doom getting even more power before it finally just fades away. Throughout the story, it is mentioned that the Life Force corrupts the host.

how would you pursue someone who used magic to flee?

It's never stated just what happened after the Life Force dissipates or whatever. Doom just sort of disappears along with it as it fades away. But they know where to find Doom if they wanted to pursue. No one was very anxious to do so. Doom does try to deflect the blame for Disassembled and House of M from Wanda to himself before he leaves but there's not a lot of support for that among the heroes. Wolverine does give some credence to it though.

[Midnight_v]

Naw. He's a villain.

Suddenly, occurred to me... maybe these guys who think this way dont know what an anti-hero is.

It's possible that these guys literally I've never heard of that concept. I mean there are people who use this forum for whom English is second or third language.

Hard to tell. In this case...
That being said...
Thankfully Marvel Comics doesn't agree with you.

[Michael Watkins]

Suddenly, occurred to me... maybe these guys who think this way dont know what an anti-hero is.

It's possible that these guys literally I've never heard of that concept. I mean there are people who use this forum for whom English is second or third language.

Hard to tell. In this case...
That being said...
Thankfully Marvel Comics doesn't agree with you.

If they didn't, Frank would not have received a beat down during Civil War. He wouldn't have sided with Hydra. There wouldn't be a Punisher Destroys the Marvel Universe. Maybe you don't know what an anti-hero is.

[Michael Watkins]

Cassie attacked after she thought her father was killed after his attack against Doom failed. This was after the Avengers and various X-Men engaged in an all out battle after declining Victor's offer to be whatever, the guardian/god of the planet.

....and Wanda said still would have agreed to the marriage after her memory was restored if Victor had given up the Life Force 's power, which she warned him had corrupted her and would do the same to him. But he didn't believe her.




Nick Spencer did not write the Children's Crusade. He was putting his own spin on it. Heinberg is not that definitive in assigning guilt. In fact no one in the story makes an accusation of murder. Iron Lad proposed to restore her the same way that her father was restored to life and take Cassie into the timestream to a point before her death. But everyone turned down that idea.



Again, you are getting the scene wrong. Doom doesn't run away. Instead he sees that Wiccan and Wanda are opening a portal with the hope that they can put the power that is starting to consume Doom. Doom starts to revert back to his normal power levels as the Life Force power leaves him. He doesn't run away but just sort of disappears or perhaps teleports.
*sighs* the things you post cast doubt on whether or not you read the story or you're just going by some vague memory.
There most definitely was a big, chaotic fight with multiple combatants. Wanda's attempt to send the power back from where it came just resulted in Doom getting even more power before it finally just fades away. Throughout the story, it is mentioned that the Life Force corrupts the host.

It's never stated just what happened after the Life Force dissipates or whatever. Doom just sort of disappears along with it as it fades away. But they know where to find Doom if they wanted to pursue. No one was very anxious to do so. Doom does try to deflect the blame for Disassembled and House of M from Wanda to himself before he leaves but there's not a lot of support for that among the heroes. Wolverine does give some credence to it though.
]

"He doesn't run away...he just sort of disappears or teleports." "But they know where to find Doom if they want to pursue."

I don't spend much time fact checking because you ignore any continuity that paints doom in a bad light. Spencer is the only one to follow up on the events of the story. Any lack of resolution is on heinberg. The facts are that doom murdered Cassie. When his personality was altered, he took responsibility for his actions, sought godlike power, and resurrected Cassie. He managed not to murder anyone during that particular storyline. But he most certainly killed Diablo. He falsely imprisoned the journalist. And he has killed someone for defacing property. That makes him objectively worse than the Punisher. Note that I didn't bring up the childhood crush.

[The Cool Thatguy]

He's never killed an innocent. I know it's ridiculous and would never happen "in real life" but...comics.

I could almost accept that, but the problem I have is that all too often, Punisher gets to throw shade at superheroes for what's also just a comic tropes, IE villains walking out of jail like it was a spa.

In the real world, jail breaks don't happen every other weekend. And those few criminals lucky enough to escape are hunted down 24/7.

More than that, Punisher never seems to have a negative effect on innocent people. Of all the people who've sought revenge on Castle for killing a relative, have any of them ever been that sympathetic? Or have any of his victims been shown as just losers who don't deserve a bullet breakfast?

Sad to say, but anti-heroes seem to have less shade thrown at them than super heroes, who are accused of swimming in bystander like its a hobby

[Snoop Dogg]

Suddenly, occurred to me... maybe these guys who think this way dont know what an anti-hero is.

It's possible that these guys literally I've never heard of that concept. I mean there are people who use this forum for whom English is second or third language.

Hard to tell. In this case...
That being said...
Thankfully Marvel Comics doesn't agree with you.

The current writer of Punisher thinks he's a villain, Marvel let him be portrayed as a straight villain in a linewide event, the character's co-creator thinks he's a failure of justice, and the TV show portrayed his violence (which again, was more reasonable) as symptoms of him being broken instead of just or right. Just because he's allowed to stand among actual heroes in WOTR because he's useful + the writer is fond of him as a former Punisher writer doesn't change that.

[WebLurker]

Frank Castle is a serial killer who has attempted murder of children under his belt. Really surprised that only the Ultimate comics were ever honest about him being a villain protagonist, at the very best.

[Midnight_v]

If they didn't, Frank would not have received a beat down during Civil War. He wouldn't have sided with Hydra. There wouldn't be a Punisher Destroys the Marvel Universe. Maybe you don't know what an anti-hero is.

Mmm.... I don't know ma'man.

Lots of saying the same thing over and over again. Without any definitions being used.

...Sounds like princess morality, instead of any in-depth character analysis.

Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post

Naw. He's a villain.

Ha ha ha, literally the favored argument by the "villain" crowd.

Meanwhile... countless articles online when you type in "Punisher Anti-Hero". In fact he's sometime sited as the quintessential modern anti-hero.
Here's a link of him being analysed by a real life clinical psychologist.
https://cosmicbook.news/content/puni...ry-lewis-video

Regardless, theres a list somewhere of the traits of heroes vs anti-heroes. Somewhere there's a list of the traits of Super-villains.

A serious conversation should start there. Starting with "Captain America" beat him up. Or "Doom" is less villainous, is laughable. Its like take off the clown shoes and be analytical for a second.
He could actually BE a villain but not just cause he makes you feel "Icky" cause off all the "Killin".
I'll leave you to it though. Bye gents.

[K7P5V]

Nope, he's never once killed an innocent person (somehow).

Frankly, he's just the same as Spider-Man, a complete comic book fantasy. But unlike Spidey and sticking to walls, Castle's powers are firing a belt fed machine gun inside city limits and only hitting bad guys and never once killing an innocent person

True. But still a lot of innocent onlookers get caught in the crossfire.

Complex? I can't recall a single story in which he didn't kill a criminal, regardless of whatever favor they might have done for him. He has one purpose, one mission and never deviates from that whatsoever

Completely devoted to his cause. This certainly speaks to his character.