Frank Castle is a Supervillain: Change my mind!!!!!!!!!

[Midnight_v]

he ain't a cop. a cop who behaved the way Castle does would be in prison. there's accountability in the profession. that shoot them before they shoot me crap is why there's a Black Lives Matter movement. might be a good idea to leave real world police out of it.

So would ANY costumed vigilante.
Black lives matter exists because of LACK of perceived accountability in the profession. Though I'd note that Zimmerman saw not a day for the Martin Killing.
I don't advocate real life violence either... at ALL.

Though if a fictional character killed a guy in after an identical set of circumstances. I'd NOT call that guy a villain. Like at all. Some would. Sounds more like an avenger to me.

Other heroes do it too. So I'm not sure why it's a problem all of a sudden when Frank does it.

Basically hypocrisy. I'd direct anybody doubting that to the Nighthawk threads from the 2016 comic. I"m certain you'll the same posters saying franks a Villain not complaining at all about the
much touted "Ultra-Violence" of david walkers book. Not once saying "hey, stop! You're making him a villain"

Smh. There are some weird hang ups lurking these boards man.

[Michael Watkins]

So would ANY costumed vigilante.

again, i am pro-registration

Though if a fictional character killed a guy in after an identical set of circumstances. I'd NOT call that guy a villain.

that's why i didn't take you seriously when you lectured us about philosophy.

Like at all. Some would. Sounds more like an avenger to me.


Basically hypocrisy. I'd direct anybody doubting that to the Nighthawk threads from the 2016 comic. I"m certain you'll the same posters saying franks a Villain not complaining at all about the
much touted "Ultra-Violence" of david walkers book. Not once saying "hey, stop! You're making him a villain"

Smh. There are some weird hang ups lurking these boards man.

Nighthawk was considered to be a villain. the version of the Squadron that he led were honest versions of the Punisher. and they were treated as villains, accordingly.

[Midnight_v]

Nighthawk was considered to be a villain. the version of the Squadron that he led were honest versions of the Punisher. and they were treated as villains, accordingly.

*Yawn*

i typed "psychopath comic book vigilante" instead.

Well of Course you did. Hahaha.
You gotta twist that narrative as best you can, to avoid the obvious truth.
But just for kicks I typed the same thing.
Spidey's on there too. . . and Batman pops up THE MOST of all on that page.

He's an anti-hero. I even posted the definition.
Here it is again: Not for you (we good as far as I'm concerned)

....but for the people who don't feel like reading 9 pages of faux moral outrage, and unsubtle ribbing.

Antihero - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antihero
An antihero or antiheroine is a main character in a story who lacks conventional heroic qualities and attributes such as
idealism, courage and morality. Although antiheroes may sometimes perform actions that are morally correct,it is not always for the right reasons,
often acting primarily out of self-interest or in ways that defy conventional ethical codes.

/Thread.

[Michael Watkins]

I wasn't equating Castle to a cop. I was equating the results.

If Castle or a cop shoots a rapist dead, they both still did the world a favour cuz no more rapist.

you said that as if it were some kind of universal law. i think they did justice a disservice by working around it. we have due process for a reason. and what's the favor? was the victim unraped? sounds like an entirely selfish act.

The only difference is the cop only killed the guy due to unforeseen circumstances of his job and Frank just offed the guy on his own accord which is wrong but there's still no more rapist so it's a win.

i'm not quite understanding your scenario. was the rapist killed during a shoot out? because what Castle does is execute people. if a cop executed someone, they'd wind up in prison. so no matter how you look at it, it's a lose-lose. justice has been skirted. and now there's one less member of law enforcement.

[Michael Watkins]

*Yawn*


Well of Course you did. Hahaha.
You gotta twist that narrative as best you can, to avoid the obvious truth.
But just for kicks I typed the same thing.
Spidey's on there too. . . and Batman pops up THE MOST of all on that page.

He's an anti-hero. I even posted the definition.
Here it is again: Not for you (we good as far as I'm concerned)

....but for the people who don't feel like reading 9 pages of faux moral outrage, and unsubtle ribbing.




/Thread.

too bad you weren't smart enough to differentiate villain and anti-hero. they are not mutually exclusive terms.



vil·lain

/ˈvilən/

noun

noun: villain; plural noun: villains

1.


(in a film, novel, or play) a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot.
"I have played more good guys than villains"


synonyms: criminal, lawbreaker, outlaw, offender, felon, convict, jailbird, malefactor, wrongdoer, black hat, supervillain; More

[Michael Watkins]

> Works for terrorists
> super-villains

Yeah. I'm still sure.

I had to ask since this was already stated. Unless you think they were rescuing puppies.

i'm not entirely sure that you and i are on the same page. i'm talking about the two masked individuals he shot during Civil War; Goldbug and Plunderer. he shot them on sight. i want you to really think about it for a second. everyone in that room was fighting to keep their costumed identities secret. those two show up and get gunned down because Castle, from his perspective, recognized them as costumed villains. they didn't show up and admit to being Parnival Plunder and whatever Goldbug's real name is. what if one of them had been a disguised Hulkling?

[Midnight_v]

too bad you weren't smart enough to differentiate villain and anti-hero. it isn't exactly a mutually exclusive scenario.



vil·lain

/ˈvilən/





noun

noun: villain; plural noun: villains



1.


(in a film, novel, or play) a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot.
"I have played more good guys than villains"


synonyms: criminal, lawbreaker, outlaw, offender, felon, convict, jailbird, malefactor, wrongdoer, black hat, supervillain; More

Brah it took 3 u pages to come up with that. You're embarrassing yourself. Pretty much the second you post an insult instead of just the facts.

Now that the definition gets posted its:

They're not Mutually exclusive

when before it was

Naw. He a villian.

Which is it?

I don't have to insult you, your argument is inconsistent and weak.

But by the metric you're putting forth he's a hero as well:

A hero (masculine) or heroine (feminine) (also known as the "good guy" or "white hat") is a real person or a main fictional character of a literary work who, in the face of danger, combats adversity through feats of ingenuity, bravery or strength; the original hero type of classical epics did such things for the sake of glory and honor. On the other hand are post-classical and modern heroes, who perform great deeds or selfless acts for the common good instead of the classical goal of wealth, pride and fame. The antonym of a hero is a villain.

Despite all the nit picks, and hand-wringing. He's essentially the quintessential modern anti-hero.
Thats why when you type in "Marvel Villain" he's no where to be found.
My argument is consistent and the definition is sound. You can say what you need after this, or not.

Rational people will read what we wrote and realize, "Yeah, He's right".
-fin

[Triniking1234]

The victim isn't unraped either when the cops catch him and stick him in a room for a few years so there's no point of using that as a counter.

I said the cop killed the crook due to unforeseen circumstance. That rules out execution. In that case the public accepts it cuz it was just the cop doing his job and the other guy was a rapist.

[Michael Watkins]

Brah it took 3 u pages to come up with that. You're embarrassing yourself. Pretty much the second you post an insult instead of just the facts.

did you forget about yawning at me? how is your show of disrespect different from my own?

Now that the definition gets posted its:


when before it was

you've clearly forgotten my explanation of why i did that from earlier. i was mocking your pretentious mention of philosophy.

I don't have to insult you, your argument is inconsistent and weak.

But by the metric you're putting forth he's a hero as well:

you claimed that he wasn't a villain. i never said that he wasn't a hero. i like the Punisher. i'm just not going to excuse away his monstrous behavior.

Ok. Lets change your mind.

The reason people have the feeling that Punisher is a Supervillian. Is generally because they have limited knowledge of morality and ethics.

There are lots of people who will give you with absolute conviction lot of moral proselytization, but who have never studied the topic of good and evil
out side of Superman, Batman, Spidey, and Cap.

They will look at you stupidly when you start talking about Immanuel Kant, or David Hume, so I'm going to suggest Pyrrhonism is the real answer to the question at hand.

Pyrrhonism holds that good and evil do not exist by nature, meaning that good and evil do not exist within the things themselves. All judgments of good and evil are relative to the one doing the judging.

And most of us are judging from the position of ignorance... Ironic in the most idiotic time in the world where cultural relativism is at its highest, that almost no one even knows the word Pyrrhonism.
I'm assuming that most people slept through first year philosophy, much less went beyond that in school or cared enough to self study on the topic.

Only the most MORALLY NAIVE people believe that all killing is wrong. That being said... not all of it is right and moral, but the problem with view typically lies in you.

You are no more right, you have no more moral authority than the people in countries that cut a mans hand off when he steals something. The idea that "HE KILLS the BAD GUYS" is just as morally naive as "NEVER KILL, ROBIN!", is the same "type" of naivety as the old west's quote "He needed a killin".
You, or your family, since you're on a computer debating comics are probably in the top earners in the world. Very protected by the society you grew up in, never had to boil water to keep out parasites never had to kill anything to eat.

Therefore... the morals most of us are using (unless they endured some great hardship or tragedy) are set to: what would likely be looked at as:

Princess morality. Abhor that which you think is "Icky" or makes you "Feel bad, man". . .

Most of use are set to that, because we've NEVER had to make a daily life or death decision, and hardly had any hardships at all compared to the OTHER portion of people in the world.

The truth is. If youre in the western world. Then "YOU" operate under a legal system that is broken. Most of us KNOW its broken. Yet, simply lack the "Power" and mostly the "Motivation" to do anything about it.
Wealth buys you more justice, Race, religion, gender, determine often just how much justice you are likely to get at ANY given moment.
So super heroes are every-single-one products of the fact that the "SYSTEM" doesn't work.

Especially, in comics where there are Persons of Mass Destruction, and one person, is more powerful that the military might of your entire country. Yet people still
call 9-11 when Electro for example shows up at the bank.

Even if we go by comic book morality this thread is obviating the obvious answer:
The punisher is an Anit-hero which is even is a commentary on "Methods" and how they matter when it comes to Costumed vigilantism.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SyvXlEV-2z...s1600/hero.png

TL;DR: The punisher isn't a Super-Hero.
Most of us don't understand morality very; we ignored it in school; and were raised with the morality of a disney princess ourselves, so it reinforces our ignorance.
The hate he gets from people stem from moral rigidity, and who want to think the version of good and evil they use is the only/undisputed version.
The Punisher isn't a "Villain" either. He's an Anit-hero. These are words that have meaning in our language. Especially, in the comic book medium.
So we should at least hold the traits and characteristics of each up to the light when making such a claim. Instead of "... the feeling" he give each of us individually.

^read that aloud to yourself. "only the most morally naive" gtfo

[Michael Watkins]

The victim isn't unraped either when the cops catch him and stick him in a room for a few years so there's no point of using that as a counter.

I said the cop killed the crook due to unforeseen circumstance. That rules out execution. In that case the public accepts it cuz it was just the cop doing his job and the other guy was a rapist.

how does that relate to what the Punisher does? this analogy is becoming weaker and weaker.

[Midnight_v]

you've clearly forgotten my explanation of why i did that from earlier. i was mocking your pretentious mention of philosophy.

Philosophy is relevant to good and evil. If you explained the mocking? I missed it. '
You came off as genuinely ignorant of what was being said.

"Naw. He a vililan" was just weak and made you seem more like "I don't get what he's saying"; let me reassert my point.

So I mean the "You started it" is just school yard talk, personally I'm beyond it. The argument got a yawn cause it was weak in reference to what we were discussing.
A tangent not worth following up on.

The argument. Not you. I don't know your intellect except what you post here.

The extent of which ITT seems to be "The punisher kills." "killing is evil" therefore "The punisher is a villian". Look captain america punched him for killing 2 known supervillians. He killed terrorist after they
surrendered. and of course "Naw. He a villain".

The comics genre is about vigilantism and often classic heroism.

Which. Killing bad guys for the sake of them being "bad guys" implies that you guys would consider most classic heroes were Vilians.
Odysseus forward. Which an agrument could be made for, not a good one, because it requires "US" applying modern morality on bronze age legends.
The punisher, meanwhile? He is first and foremost an anti-hero and an protagonist.

and marvel sees it that way too, in practice at least. Thats why he's on the avengers title right this second. While the "Scourge of the underworld" never gets a team up with Wolverine or spidey.

^read that aloud to yourself. "only the most morally naive" gtfo

That actually true. I wasn't even shooting at you. I see it got you mad about the tone but, oh well at least you got
some emotion out of the forums today. If you can't deal with morality talk in a thread about someones favorite hero
is or is NOT actually a villian. maybe you need to gtfo your self?

Meanwhile. . .

All killing ISN"T bad. Some of it is NEEDED.
The issue seems to be who has the authority to do it. The state, any government takes the authority by force of arms.
When they put somebody to death we just accept it even when they get it wrong the system isn't really "Punished" and we both know
in this country the system is heavily biased against anybody with the wrong skin tone or insufficient wealth.
Its hella morally naive to be like "he's evil cause he kills, so he's a villian" thats little kid logic.

If the act is bad, or the outcome is bad, and how we judge that comes down to philosophical differences. Philosophy.

The fact that he's the face of the Anti-hero is a better argument in the end anyway. He's acknowledged as such publicly and as a property.

I don't even love the character. He's not my favorite even though he's identifiable for many people.

My issue is the "He kills XY&Z" if we accept that then MANY of the heroes are villains as well. Almost ALL the anti-heroes are villians.

Wolverine? Cable? Blade? (What if that vampire can be redeemed and take the serum?) Almost every popular 90's style hero.
Nah. They're fighting. The hand. Aim. Purifiers. Hydra...
All killing doesn't make you a villain. Franks getting a bad shake in my opinion.
Killing "Mooks" and "fodder" in the realm of comics CERTAINLY doesn't.

but like I said. We good. Can't be living in one thread all day.

[Triniking1234]

how does that relate to what the Punisher does? this analogy is becoming weaker and weaker.

I said in both the cop and Frank did a good deed since they got rid of the rapist however Frank is still wrong because he operated outside the law.

[Michael Watkins]

Philosophy is relevant to good and evil. If you explained the mocking? I missed it. '
You came off as genuinely ignorant of what was being said.

"Naw. He a vililan" was just weak and made you seem more like "I don't get what he's saying"; let me reassert my point.

So I mean the "You started it" is just school yard talk, personally I'm beyond it. The argument got a yawn cause it was weak in reference to what we were discussing.
A tangent not worth following up on.

The argument. Not you. I don't know your intellect except what you post here.

The extent of which ITT seems to be "The punisher kills." "killing is evil" therefore "The punisher is a villian". Look captain america punched him for killing 2 known supervillians. He killed terrorist after they
surrendered. and of course "Naw. He a villain".

The comics genre is about vigilantism and often classic heroism.

Which. Killing bad guys for the sake of them being "bad guys" implies that you guys would consider most classic heroes were Vilians.
Odysseus forward. Which an agrument could be made for, not a good one, because it requires "US" applying modern morality on bronze age legends.
The punisher, meanwhile? He is first and foremost an anti-hero and an protagonist.

and marvel sees it that way too, in practice at least. Thats why he's on the avengers title right this second. While the "Scourge of the underworld" never gets a team up with Wolverine or spidey.

Scourge, the organization, operated under the radar. they hid their identities because they knew what they were doing was criminal. they were using the Punisher's tactics. to highlight that, the Punisher has imitated Scourge more than once. remember Stilt-Man's funeral at the Bar with No Name? Punisher ambushed the people who showed up to the funeral. that was a nod to Scourge. as shown in the Superior Foes of Spider-man book, a lot of supervillains believe that Punisher was Scourge. they can't tell the difference. and i've seen nothing to suggest that the heroes see a difference. Captain Hydra probably didn't see a difference. he used frank in the same way that Fisk used Nuke (another Scourge).

[Michael Watkins]

I said in both the cop and Frank did a good deed since they got rid of the rapist however Frank is still wrong because he operated outside the law.

that's great that you think killing the rapist is a good deed. i simply don't agree. i think the act is wrong either way. would the rapist get the death penalty if they went through the system? are we just talking about mob rule?

[Godlike13]

He’s a serial killer.