On the Outside: The Outsiders Appreciation/Discussion thread '19

[Mr HardKnocks]

Black Lightning did have a proper foundation with his family and rivalry with Tobias Whale. For some reason his family isn't even around in the comics anymore.

His family didn’t come in until the early 2000 or him having children didn’t come in until the early 2000.

[JasonTodd428]

Batwing has his own book. So that would not be an issue.

TO go with what I said earlier-I think Tony has an issue with Batman;s name being used.

If all Batman is going to do is bark out orders and leave-that is DISRESPECTFUL to everyone in the book.

If that is all this book is going to be-you might as well call it Suicide Squad and get Waller.

Eventually no one is going to pay $4 for Batman cameos.

Honestly Batman barks orders at literally everyone so if he comes in and does that here it's no different IMHO. However, there is a difference between his handing out a mission to a team and his "barking orders" at them. In this issue of Outsiders Batman was doing the former not the latter plus he was also handing the team to BL to lead as he saw fit. Sorry but I see nothing wrong with how it was handled at all And I certainly don't see BL serving as a "support negro" which is the phrase I take issue with here. That's a load of BS. Just my opinion.

[HandofPrometheus]

I think they should've just named it Outsiders instead of using Batman's. But, I get and agree with both sides. However, Tony thinking his mini transcends space and time is hilarious because his direction for the character is honestly trash and the show out sold him.

[JasonTodd428]

Yeah the show is 100 times better then the recent mini at least in my opinion anyway.

[Aahz]

Black Lightning did have a proper foundation with his family and rivalry with Tobias Whale.

Thats not much of a foundation imo. Espacally since his daughters for the most part only appeared in books where he had only small cameos. And Whale is also not such a great villain.

But the thing is in general that comics that are not somehow part of one of DCs bigger franchises barely ever sell.
I mean once in a while they have a surprise hit like for example the last Mister Miracle book, but how often does something like that happen?
Usually sales for those books drop pretty quickly to around 10K.

[Korath]

Yeah the show is 100 times better then the recent mini at least in my opinion anyway.

I would say that the main problem with the mini was that it very felt like the middle of a larger series for me. There is tons of characters I don't know about, and aliens and everything, and I was seriously confused. In itself, the story isn't bad, but it really doesn't help readers who don't have a larger knowledge of BL mythos to understand what's happening.

That's why I think that I'll take a BatO as a stealth book for Black Lightning over nothing, especially when Hills is really hinting at the separation between Batman and the Outsiders (the team being named first when the four members are gathered after downing Saint John). Pierce is also a lot less subservient to Batman than he was in the original series, and the very fact that he had no qualm to say that he didn't want to go after Sofia because he felt it was just a way to get the team out of Batman's mind and way was quite telling that he wasn't a lackey of the Bat, at least to me.

Edit :

And Bryan Hill gave the best answer to Isabella's complain, I think : https://www.cbr.com/batman-outsiders...ack-lightning/

[DragonsChi]

A lot of interesting perspectives. I have my opinions on the current conversation as well. However, I hoping this series might change some of my current views and wont give my two cents until at least issue 3 or 4.


My only major concern is Signal & that gwad awful Bat uniform. Kid will never be his own man wearing that thing.

Outside of that I really liked the first issue. It be nice to have this title be a consistent well written main stay. *Fingers Crossed*

[Vampire Savior]

I took a look at the issue and it looks really cool. Art is great, and the character work is good. The quality of the comic is definitely up there... BUT!

I also really get what Isabella is saying, and looking at this comic book, it's kind of hard to get past the idea of Batman lording over all these ethnics and them needing him as an anchor. And even if Black Lightning is supposedly the leader, he's the leader on Batman's authority. So, it's kind of a funny thing. Considering craft and quality, I think this is a really cool looking comic book, and it's great to see so many PoC characters showcased without looking terrible, but it's also upsetting that they're put in Batman's shadow and NEED him. In that respect, I agree with what Isabella is saying.

[Konja7]

Batwing has his own book. So that would not be an issue.

TO go with what I said earlier-I think Tony has an issue with Batman;s name being used.

If all Batman is going to do is bark out orders and leave-that is DISRESPECTFUL to everyone in the book.

If that is all this book is going to be-you might as well call it Suicide Squad and get Waller.

Eventually no one is going to pay $4 for Batman cameos.


And Hill has been blocked by Tony a long time ago on Twitter.

I think Hill needs to worry about his editorial staff more than Tony. I just wonder who was that executive Tony talked to. Help us all if it was Dan.

I don't know. I wouldn't understimate the Batman name in the title even if Batman is just cameos.

DC is using Batman to promote the book (and Black Lightning), because it needs the name to sell the book. Otherwise, the comic doesn't have many chances to last.

I do not know if this can help Black Lightning. However, a book that is canceled very fast is not going to be beneficial for Black Lightning.

[Vampire Savior]

If DC does six issue minis and aims more for the trade paperback market than for the floppy market, I think Black Lightning would fair better. Going down this road, Black Lightning is building a foundation as a team player under Batman instead of being his own independent hero, which is actually what he was designed to be, which, I believe, is where Isabella's gripe comes in. It would be a shame for DC's only truly independent black hero to be relegated to team status under Batman.

Cyborg is a team guy with no independent foundation. John Stewart is dependent on a white hero and will likely always be in the white hero's shadow. Vixen is a team member primarily associated with Suicide Squad. She has virtually no foundation of her own. Duke Thomas is a Batman sidekick. Black Lightning is the closest thing DC has to a black hero with his own world, sad as it is, because he barely any foundation himself, and what is there isn't even that good, IMO.

This isn't really how you cultivate an independent black hero with longevity. You have to think about the long term, not what is going to lead to some sales for a while at the expense of the character's integrity and agency. Even if that means taking some licks along the way. The road is harder, but it reaps much greater rewards.
That said, good comics can be done with the character in this format, but in the long run, this format can be seen as a regression for the character, and it isn't helping toward building HIS OWN foundation.

[Konja7]

If DC does six issue minis and aims more for the trade paperback market than for the floppy market, I think Black Lightning would fair better. Going down this road, Black Lightning is building a foundation as a team player under Batman instead of being his own independent hero, which is actually what he was designed to be, which, I believe, is where Isabella's gripe comes in. It would be a shame for DC's only truly independent black hero to be relegated to team status under Batman.

Black Lightning had a six issues mini. We have no proof that it had sold well as a trade.

On the contrary, they have decided to depend on Batman, that hints that this mini should not have good reception in general.

I've always read trade paperback may help characters, but I don't know how correct is this.

This isn't really how you cultivate an independent black hero with longevity. You have to think about the long term, not what is going to lead to some sales for a while at the expense of the character's integrity and agency. Even if that means taking some licks along the way. The road is harder, but it reaps much greater rewards.
That said, good comics can be done with the character in this format, but in the long run, this format can be seen as a regression for the character, and it isn't helping toward building HIS OWN foundation.

It would only reaper greater rewards if it works at some level, which we don't know it will happen.

It's possible Black Lightning depending only in his name never get enough attention in the current comic market.

[bretmaverick2]

I really enjoyed the first issue. This is the first new title I’ve picked in a long while - not counting limited series.

For me, any Outsiders book needs two mainstay characters: Black Lightning and Batman. For me, if these two aren’t involved I am just not interested. I’ve always seen them as the ‘anchors’ of the franchise.

I have a lotta respect for Tony but I kind of wish he had given the title 4-6 issues before voicing his opposition to let the new creative team finish setting up the series.

[DragonsChi]

I took a look at the issue and it looks really cool. Art is great, and the character work is good. The quality of the comic is definitely up there... BUT!

I also really get what Isabella is saying, and looking at this comic book, it's kind of hard to get past the idea of Batman lording over all these ethnics and them needing him as an anchor. And even if Black Lightning is supposedly the leader, he's the leader on Batman's authority. So, it's kind of a funny thing. Considering craft and quality, I think this is a really cool looking comic book, and it's great to see so many PoC characters showcased without looking terrible, but it's also upsetting that they're put in Batman's shadow and NEED him. In that respect, I agree with what Isabella is saying.

The primary reason I'm giving it until issue 3 or 4 is because it is like that whenever Batman is in the room with anyone. White, Black, Green, or whatever else. In the DC Universe when Batman shows up he is telling someone in the room what to do and how to do it. Even cats like Wonder Woman and Superman.

So it's hard to play the race card off the bat. (Edit: Pun sooo not intended. Dang that was bad. I'm literally embarrassed by that but can't think of another phrase to change it with...)

[Mr HardKnocks]

Cyborg is a team guy with no independent foundation. John Stewart is dependent on a white hero and will likely always be in the white hero's shadow. Vixen is a team member primarily associated with Suicide Squad. She has virtually no foundation of her own. Duke Thomas is a Batman sidekick. Black Lightning is the closest thing DC has to a black hero with his own world, sad as it is, because he barely any foundation himself, and what is there isn't even that good, IMO.

Yes, I think this is Tony Isabella’s main gripe with The Outsiders. He’s been battling DC for years trying to get the character over as a proper solo hero with his own lore. Out of these characters mentioned Black Lightning is the only one to debut in his own lead series everyone else was created with team or support intent. DC doesn’t know show how to develop other characters into proper solo heroes that’s why it looks like Cyborg will be only JL member to not get a solo film.

[Vampire Savior]

It would only reaper greater rewards if it works at some level, which we don't know it will happen.

Yeah, but you can say that about pretty much anything. We don't know if this will work, either, and if it does, it works toward Black Lightning being a team guy. In publishing, books/characters/series sometimes take time to find their audience, because word of mouth is the main way people hear about this stuff, and people often like a nice back list of content to dive into. If DC puts out trades of Black Lightning as a solo hero, at least they're building a back list. And if they're smart, they would capitalize on that content by building off of it in intelligent ways. But there are a lot of "ifs" there. First, the content would need to be good (apparently the last mini series wasn't), and then DC would need to be coordinated enough to build off the content in a way that continues to develop the character and his world. There is nothing guaranteeing any of that. A lot of the time, DC wipes the slate clean and starts from scratch, like what they did with Cyborg in the transition from Walker to Semper. Judging from those instances, DC attempting to make Black Lightning a successful hero probably would't work anyway. But that would primarily be because of bad decision making on the editors' and creators' parts.