On the Outside: The Outsiders Appreciation/Discussion thread '19

[Raijin]

BL sword-fighting with Katana makes me want to see a story line in which Jeff loses his powers and has to rely on martial arts. At first I was worried that Batman would overshadow everyone. But he was barely a presence. Awesome first issue.

[Bromor]

Caliber is Oliver Queen from the future. Change my mind.

I mean look at his face!

[Korath]

My pet theory right now is that :

spoilers:

Kaliber works for Leviathan. His design is very reminiscent of some of Quietus modified goons, and Quietus has been forced back into submission by Talia in The Silencer. What I suspect is that Ishmael is sent by Ra's because he needs to reassert himself and get more firepower and Sofia could provide it, while Leviathan sees her as an axcellent material for their goal, which is -as far as it was stated in The Silencer- to create a whole new society, purged from what Talia consider abhorrent. Kaliber's speech could definitively go in this direction.

end of spoilers

Also : do you think that the team will be expanded ? I think four characters are a great start, and I want them to be developed well, but I can't help but hope we'll see at least one more character (possibly Sofia?) added to the team down the line.

[Korath]

Double post just to share this article for those of us like me, who don't have much more knowledge of the guy beyond "Cable exists and comes from the future" : https://www.cbr.com/batman-and-the-o...s-cable-x-men/

And an interwiew of Bryan Hill from Polygon : https://www.polygon.com/comics/2019/...ghtning-katana

[Captain Craig]

Glad to see positive reaction to this first issue. I got it but not yet read it due to so much real life happenings.
I got it for 3 reasons:
Black Lightning
Orphan
Katana

Nice to see that Batman was low key and not integral cause I've been reading Bruce since 1990 across multiple books. In my "older"(43) years I'm much more interested in B/C list characters getting their due.

[Korath]

Ouch ! Tony Isabella didn't like this issue very much : https://www.cbr.com/black-lightning-...the-outsiders/

[Cmbmool]

Ouch ! Tony Isabella didn't like this issue very much : https://www.cbr.com/black-lightning-...the-outsiders/

I have to agree with him on some points as DC is pushing Batman and his "Robins" too much and even Batgirl a bit that everyone else is playing to Batman's fiddle, even Superman. It's all Frank Miller's fault and his influence on the character that has not been let up since then.

[king81992]

My pet theory right now is that :

spoilers:

Kaliber works for Leviathan. His design is very reminiscent of some of Quietus modified goons, and Quietus has been forced back into submission by Talia in The Silencer. What I suspect is that Ishmael is sent by Ra's because he needs to reassert himself and get more firepower and Sofia could provide it, while Leviathan sees her as an axcellent material for their goal, which is -as far as it was stated in The Silencer- to create a whole new society, purged from what Talia consider abhorrent. Kaliber's speech could definitively go in this direction.

end of spoilers

Also : do you think that the team will be expanded ? I think four characters are a great start, and I want them to be developed well, but I can't help but hope we'll see at least one more character (possibly Sofia?) added to the team down the line.

I'm pretty sure that the team will get expanded eventually.

[Mr HardKnocks]

I have to agree with him on some points as DC is pushing Batman and his "Robins" too much and even Batgirl a bit that everyone else is playing to Batman's fiddle, even Superman. It's all Frank Miller's fault and his influence on the character that has not been let up since then.

I think Tony Isabella just wants the character to have longevity and that’ll never happen as long as he plays second fiddle to Batman. He made Black Lightning with the intent of him being a positive black superhero and he’s been screwed out of doing that so many times from the Hanna Barbera/Black Vulcan situation to being fired from a BL series by an editor. At this stage the character needs a proper foundation and he needs an expansive mythos but he won’t get that until DC recognizes Black Lightning as more than a member of one of Batman’s teams.

[lemonpeace]

I think Tony Isabella just wants the character to have longevity and that’ll never happen as long as he plays second fiddle to Batman. He made Black Lightning with the intent of him being a positive black superhero and he’s been screwed out of doing that so many times from the Hanna Barbera/Black Vulcan situation to being fired from a BL series by an editor. At this stage the character needs a proper foundation and he needs an expansive mythos but he won’t get that until DC recognizes Black Lightning as more than a member of one of Batman’s teams.

It feels more like Isabella is speaking from his ego as the creator rather than from a concern about the characterization of Black Lightning. I can agree that DC's insistence on the Bat brand is an issue but it's intellectually dishonest to say he's the "support negro" reading Batman and the Outsiders. What's more insulting, using a more popular brand to showcase BL or giving him his own book that'll tank because they're indulging Isabella's ego to do another mediocre story? This isn't his character, it's DC's, and given his last contribution to the character I'm not too sure how much stock I can put into his vision for the character regardless. If he's so concerned with the utilization of Black Lightning as a black icon, doesn't he owe it to the character to give the book he's leading more than one issue before writing him off as the "support negro", considering the voices of color working on it? Voices that may have unique perspectives that could contribute to the character in places he as an older writer wouldn't see, maybe? It's unfortunate he didn't dig the first issue but it just feels hyperbolic.

[JasonTodd428]

It feels more like Isabella is speaking from his ego as the creator rather than from a concern about the characterization of Black Lightning. I can agree that DC's insistence on the Bat brand is an issue but it's intellectually dishonest to say he's the "support negro" reading Batman and the Outsiders. What's more insulting, using a more popular brand to showcase BL or giving him his own book that'll tank because they're indulging Isabella's ego to do another mediocre story? This isn't his character, it's DC's, and given his last contribution to the character I'm not too sure how much stock I can put into his vision for the character regardless. If he's so concerned with the utilization of Black Lightning as a black icon, doesn't he owe it to the character to give the book he's leading more than one issue before writing him off as the "support negro",considering the voices of color working on it? Voices that may have unique perspectives that could contribute to the character he as a older writer wouldn't see, maybe? It's unfortunate he didn't dig the first issue but it just feels hyperbolic.

First off kudos for your post lemonpeace. You said everything I wanted to say but better than I could have and with more tact as well.

I don't honestly know if Isabella was speaking from his ego here or not but I do think that to write off BL in Hill's Outsiders as a "support negro" is disingenuous. I agree DC's reliance on the Bat brand is problematic but I didn't get the sense that Jefferson was being treated as a support character here. In fact, Bruce even goes so far as to repeatedly tell BL that the Outsiders is HIS team, which implies that the Outsiders is NOT Batman's. From my point of view it seems that Bruce is pushing Jefferson to make his own decisions and to be the leader of the team here because of Jefferson's reluctance to do so and the fact that Jeff seems reluctant does not in any way make BL a "support negro" IMHO. Heck, it doesn't even sound like Batman is going to be all that involved beyond giving the team missions. He's certainly not going to be involved in this story arc much from he said to Jefferson. It really feels to my like the situation with Batwing (David Zavimbe) where Batman popped up from time to time in a supporting role but David pretty much did his own thing. I hope Hill doesn't let Isabella's reaction to this issue stop him from telling whatever story he has planned and that he takes it all in stride as he should.

In any case and regardless of how Isabella may feel I enjoyed the first issue and I'm looking forward to seeing how the characters develop over the course of story. I love each and every one of the characters and hope this book is a success.

[skyvolt2000]

I think Tony Isabella just wants the character to have longevity and that’ll never happen as long as he plays second fiddle to Batman. He made Black Lightning with the intent of him being a positive black superhero and he’s been screwed out of doing that so many times from the Hanna Barbera/Black Vulcan situation to being fired from a BL series by an editor. At this stage the character needs a proper foundation and he needs an expansive mythos but he won’t get that until DC recognizes Black Lightning as more than a member of one of Batman’s teams.

I think that is the point he was trying to make.

In the Bleedingcool comment section a store owner said no bought the BL mini but he sold 25 copies of Outsiders. He was trying to be smartmouth but he showed the issue Tony has.
If this book was called Black Lightning & Outsiders (leaving the story as is)-how many stores would order it? 4 POC and a black writer. With Duke-who many don't care for. That is 3 strikes against it.
With stores that don't want books like that to be made as we have seen with Luke Cage, Panther, Falcon, Cyborg, Shuri & Moon Girl.

Throw Batman's name on it and all is forgiven.
Batman only appeared on 13 panels.
Cass did 16.
Duke & Katana did 26
Jefferson did 35

If this was to continue-it's not a good thing because you are using Batman's name to sell a book. All you got is a stealth Black Lighting book. Ask Storm fans how it felt to have a well done Storm in Black Panther. It has not helped her in X-Men.

What's more insulting, using a more popular brand to showcase BL or giving him his own book that'll tank because they're indulging Isabella's ego to do another mediocre story? This isn't his character, it's DC's, and given his last contribution to the character I'm not too sure how much stock I can put into his vision for the character regardless.

Here are the number on Amazon-

Batman & the Outsiders (2018-) #1 (Kindle)
#24 in 45-Minute Comic & Graphic Novel Short Reads
#110 in Superhero Graphic Novels
#246 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels

What was TELLING about Tony's statements is HE TALKED TO A DC EXECUTIVE.
That should be a RED FLAG right there. The pitch he gave was a good one while it smells like a Luke Cage type book.
Hill is already looking to leave comics anyway-if those numbers don't stay high-guess who gets the book. While the title might not change-you still have BL's creator on it.

And I say that as someone who HATED that mini series. I would say Hill better watch out.

[Kurisu]

Ouch ! Tony Isabella didn't like this issue very much : https://www.cbr.com/black-lightning-...the-outsiders/

We get it, Tony. You have a black friend.

[skyvolt2000]

First off kudos for your post lemonpeace. You said everything I wanted to say but better than I could have and with more tact as well.

I don't honestly know if Isabella was speaking from his ego here or not but I do think that to write off BL in Hill's Outsiders as a "support negro" is disingenuous. I agree DC's reliance on the Bat brand is problematic but I didn't get the sense that Jefferson was being treated as a support character here. In fact, Bruce even goes so far as to repeatedly tell BL that the Outsiders is HIS team, which implies that the Outsiders is NOT Batman's. From my point of view it seems that Bruce is pushing Jefferson to make his own decisions and to be the leader of the team here because of Jefferson's reluctance to do so and the fact that Jeff seems reluctant does not in any way make BL a "support negro" IMHO. Heck, it doesn't even sound like Batman is going to be all that involved beyond giving the team missions. He's certainly not going to be involved in this story arc much from he said to Jefferson. It really feels to my like the situation with Batwing (David Zavimbe) where Batman popped up from time to time in a supporting role but David pretty much did his own thing. I hope Hill doesn't let Isabella's reaction to this issue stop him from telling whatever story he has planned and that he takes it all in stride as he should.

In any case and regardless of how Isabella may feel I enjoyed the first issue and I'm looking forward to seeing how the characters develop over the course of story. I love each and every one of the characters and hope this book is a success.

Batwing has his own book. So that would not be an issue.

TO go with what I said earlier-I think Tony has an issue with Batman;s name being used.

If all Batman is going to do is bark out orders and leave-that is DISRESPECTFUL to everyone in the book.

If that is all this book is going to be-you might as well call it Suicide Squad and get Waller.

Eventually no one is going to pay $4 for Batman cameos.


And Hill has been blocked by Tony a long time ago on Twitter.

I think Hill needs to worry about his editorial staff more than Tony. I just wonder who was that executive Tony talked to. Help us all if it was Dan.

[king81992]

I think Tony Isabella just wants the character to have longevity and that’ll never happen as long as he plays second fiddle to Batman. He made Black Lightning with the intent of him being a positive black superhero and he’s been screwed out of doing that so many times from the Hanna Barbera/Black Vulcan situation to being fired from a BL series by an editor. At this stage the character needs a proper foundation and he needs an expansive mythos but he won’t get that until DC recognizes Black Lightning as more than a member of one of Batman’s teams.

Black Lightning did have a proper foundation with his family and rivalry with Tobias Whale. For some reason his family isn't even around in the comics anymore.