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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    I would not be so quick to discount the popularity of Black Cat considering she recieved an ongoing publication of her own.
    ..Which took them decades. and which we cannot be certain will even be ultimately profitable.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    To quote former EIC and curent CCO Joe Quesada, "Peter Parker playing the field is absolutely out of character".



    Black Cat is actually getting a lot more focus under Spencer's run then she did during the entirety of Slott's run. It's maybe her best turn as a character since the '80s. In addition there's PAD's Symbiote Spider-Man which is an Untold tales set between ASM #252-#257.



    There's a difference between liking the character, and liking that character in a relationship with another. There's nothing connecting the two.

    For instance, Roger Stern is a fan of Mary Jane as a character and has written excellent stories that flesh her out and was the one who invented her background and backstory, but he's not a fan of Peter and Mary Jane in a relationship.



    Says the person trying to pick a fight or making this about Felicia vs. Mary Jane.

    There's an entire thread devoted to Felicia Hardy here, still running and continuously posted and not everything there is about the relationship between Peter and Felicia or shipping wars. You can post there.


    Obviously taste is subjective and so on. I will say that there's a reason that Mary Jane continues to remain popular and constantly reappears and gets updated and reinvented in different runs no matter repeated attempts to write her out of the titles. She is simply a more original character than Felicia Hardy. Felicia Hardy at the end of the day will never escape the shadow of Selina Kyle, which by the way is the stated reasons multiple producers have been reluctant to introduce her into live action. Whereas Mary Jane Watson is easily the most complex and interesting female character Stan Lee ever created across all the superhero titles he oversaw, edited and wrote in the golden period.
    The reality is Felicia will never be Peter's soul mate. This applies to 21st Century ladies like Cindy Moon or Michelle Gonzalez ( who I really like by the way) like it applied to Gwen and Betty. Why? :She understands Peter in a way no one else has before or since. How? She is tough but sensitive. Peter needs an ear to listen to or a kick in the ass depending on the situation, and she has done both down through the years.

  3. #18
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    The only Black Cat that I would honestly pair up with Peter is the TAS version. Much more stable a relationship.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    ..Which took them decades. and which we cannot be certain will even be ultimately profitable.
    I believe the series will be profitable at the onset and short-term, but otherwise you are most likely correct. Is this the win you were after? The launch of an ongoing Black Cat series after forty years is assuredly an attempt by Marvel Comics to capitalize on her recent rise in popularity (see Marvel's Spider-Man for PS4). It is an unstable and ill-conceived foundation for an ongoing series despite Nick Spencer's admirable appreciation for the character.

    If we must make Catwoman comparisons here, there's sadly even less reason to believe this series will succeed. Tom King worked closey with JoŽlle Jones building on the character of Selina Kyle in Batman for years. Felicia Hardy, the Black Cat, is less than a year removed from a horrid portrayal lasting nearly seven years. [SUBJECTIVE OPINION DISCLOSURE]: I would have preferred a similar period of character development with Felicia in which she restores/rekindles her relationship with Peter.

    Extraneous thought: Don't be fooled, this shared MCU multiverse (is that redundant?) theory is nonsense. Every blockbuster success of Marvel makes their former Spider-Verse assets with Sony all the more valuable. I cannot imagine Venom, Black Cat, Silver Sable, Morbius, etc. appearing on Disney film anytime soon.
    Last edited by KB06; 05-07-2019 at 09:20 AM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    The only Black Cat that I would honestly pair up with Peter is the TAS version. Much more stable a relationship.
    Dude, she digs vampires.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    I believe the series will be profitable at the onset and short-term, but otherwise you are most likely correct. Is this the win you were after? The launch of an ongoing Black Cat series after forty years is assuredly an attempt by Marvel Comics to capitalize on her recent rise in popularity (see Marvel's Spider-Man for PS4). It is an unstable and ill-conceived foundation for an ongoing series despite Nick Spencer's admirable appreciation for the character.

    If we must make Catwoman comparisons here, there's sadly even less reason to believe this series will succeed. Tom King worked closey with JoŽlle Jones building on the character of Selina Kyle in Batman for years. Felicia Hardy, the Black Cat, is less than a year removed from a horrid portrayal lasting nearly seven years. [SUBJECTIVE OPINION DISCLOSURE]: I would have preferred a similar period of character development with Felicia in which she restores/rekindles her relationship with Peter.

    Extraneous thought: Don't be fooled, this shared MCU multiverse (is that redundant?) theory is nonsense. Every blockbuster success of Marvel makes their former Spider-Verse assets with Sony all the more valuable. I cannot imagine Venom, Black Cat, Silver Sable, Morbius, etc. appearing on Disney film anytime soon.
    I despised the way that Dan Slott wrote Felicia ( even more then his treatment of MJ and Peter), which is something because Pre-Slott I considered her a Selina Kyle ripoff. But if MJ will be Pete's main squeeze ( and hopefully wife), there is no need for her in Amazing (just like there is no need for Cindy ( Thank God she is gone ( and I hope she stays gone)). Let the character develop somewhere else.

  7. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    I believe the series will be profitable at the onset and short-term, but otherwise you are most likely correct. Is this the win you were after? The launch of an ongoing Black Cat series after forty years is assuredly an attempt by Marvel Comics to capitalize on her recent rise in popularity (see Marvel's Spider-Man for PS4).
    The popularity and success of Black Cat's ongoing is not conditioned/dependent on her being in a relationship with Spider-Man. In fact, quite the opposite. For instance, Selina Kyle actually did have an ongoing series that lasted many issues with top talent like Ed Brubaker and Darwyn Cooke working on her stories. But most of those stories didn't have Batman and Selina in a relationship. Sure Batman/Bruce was there but it wasn't the case they were dating most of the time.

    It is an unstable and ill-conceived foundation for an ongoing series despite Nick Spencer's admirable appreciation for the character.
    Spencer isn't writing the ongoing you know.

    If we must make Catwoman comparisons here, there's sadly even less reason to believe this series will succeed. Tom King worked closey with JoŽlle Jones building on the character of Selina Kyle in Batman for years.
    And before that you had Catwoman being the star of her own ongoing with Brubaker, and Cooke writing for her, also Paul Dini in Heart of Hush, Loeb and Lee's HUSH miniseries and many other stories before that, in the early Post-Crisis to late Pre-Crisis period. Not to mention the many iconic actresses who have brought Selina to life --Julie Newmar, Eartha Kitt, Michelle Pfeiffer, Anne Hathaway, and in animation, Adrienne Barbeau and Grey Delisle.

    In the case of Felicia Hardy, she had great writers in the 80s, with Roger Stern, Tom Defalco, and Bill Mantlo really elevating her into an interesting character expanding on Marv Wolfman's concept and also changing and improving on it considerably.

    Felicia Hardy, the Black Cat, is less than a year removed from a horrid portrayal lasting nearly seven years.
    A period when Peter and MJ weren't in a relationship together anyway. In fact Black Cat and Peter had costumed friends-with-benefits stuff in the early BND era in a time when MJ was written out of the books. So Felicia being written well is not in any sense conditioned/dependent on Peter and MJ being together or Peter and Felicia being in a relationship.

    The problems with Felicia Hardy as a character is that she doesn't entirely fit in Spider-Man's corner. Peter's world has a realistic side, you could recognize that characters come from a real place. In the case of Felicia she is blatantly a pulp character archetype...i.e sexy jewel thief who dresses in a catsuit that doesn't fit that realistic milieu. It's basically a kind of character that only exists in heist movies of the Ocean's Eleven kind. This is also true of Selina Kyle by the way but again Batman's Gotham City being this abstract fictitious city makes that work there while it doesn't in NYC. When Roger Stern wrote Felicia he got a lot of mileage of the fact that Felicia Hardy thinks that Spider-Man is secretly Cary Grant behind the mask in the period before Peter unmasked himself. She thinks she's in To Catch A Thief and so on ...for those who are wondering about Felicia's Cary Grant references in Spencer's run, this is where it comes from). The joke is that someone with that kind of fantasy of sophistication and elegance is dating a poor student living in a cheap apartment. The clash of fantasy with reality is part of the poignancy of that relationship.

    But that also means that later writers are struggling to ground her in Peter's world since that unreality is a huge part of her character. Kevin Smith did a take which was just distasteful and later writers struggle to make her work.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Dude, she digs vampires.
    That’s racist!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spencer isn't writing the ongoing you know.
    You either assume too much or misinterpreted my earlier comments. Jed MacKay is writing Black Cat (2019), but Nick Spencer laid the groundwork for the series in "The Heist" story arc by establishing the Thieves Guild and an antagonist in Odessa Drake (as well as whatever repercussions come of "Hunted"). Again, I do not need to be lectured.

    My understanding is you believe Peter Parker and Felicia Hardy cannot form a lasting and meaningful romantic relationship. Few, if any, characters in modern comic books are able to sustain lasting relationships. I am here on behalf of the compelling stories and interesting narratives, not to reinforce or legitimize a fictional relationship. Allow me to reiterate: my belief and opinion is the rekindling of a meaningful relationship between Peter and Felicia (as seen in The Amazing Spider-Man #16.HU) presented the most compelling plot line for Spider-Man's personal life in Marvel's Fresh Start.

    I am not going to lecture you; by all accounts you are more knowledgeable about the history of character than I am. I suppose I should extend a courtesy and ask: What is your ideal narrative for the future of The Amazing Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man? I am not so presumptuous to assume you simply wish to "rectify" the events of One More Day and restore the marriage in yet another installment. This path is well-trodden and entirely predictable. Create your own path while respecting the history, idiosyncrasies, and interactions of characters you truly appreciate and understand. In comics, as well as entertainment in general, we are susceptible to re-telling the same familiar story repeatedly out of comfort or broad appeal.

    This is not an argument. It is a suggestion—to give something both fresh and familiar a chance to develop into an interesting story under capable authors, artists, editors.
    Last edited by KB06; 05-07-2019 at 04:15 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    That’s racist!
    Hands covered in suckers!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mauled View Post
    Sign me up for the Felicia train too. I prefer her to MJ too
    I'm hopping on as well!
    "Anyone can win a fight when the odds are easy! It's when the going's tough - when there seems to be no chance - that's when it counts!" - Spider-Man

  12. #27
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    Trains can be derailed.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    My understanding is you believe Peter Parker and Felicia Hardy cannot form a lasting and meaningful romantic relationship.
    They did form a meaningful romantic relationship in the comics and that ended. Just read The Owl/Octopus War (one of the all-time greatest Spider-Man stories) which doesn't work without Peter and Black Cat in a relationship.

    Few, if any, characters in modern comic books are able to sustain lasting relationships.
    Peter/Mary Jane lasted for twenty years you know. They got married in fact on the 25th Anniversary of Spider-Man's publication history. So it's a huge part of the character's foundational period and twenty years were a pretty long time. Fun fact, I was born in the year after they were married -- 1987.

    I suppose I should extend a courtesy and ask: What is your ideal narrative for the future of The Amazing Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man?
    I am not in the business of doing Marvel's job for themselves. I am not a fan who expects to write comics some day. I see myself as a lifelong fan and critic.

    I am not so presumptuous to assume you simply wish to "rectify" the events of One More Day and restore the marriage in yet another installment.
    Cards on the table. That's exactly what I am.

    Create your own path while respecting the history, idiosyncrasies, and interactions of characters you truly appreciate and understand.
    Respecting "the history, idiosyncrasies, and interactions of characters" is exactly why I want OMD undone and the actual unbroken continuity to AF#15 be restored in fact and deed in its entirety.

    It is a suggestion—to give something both fresh and familiar a chance to develop into an interesting story under capable authors, artists, editors.
    I don't read Spider-Man for something fresh. I read actual new comics and creator owned stuff for that. Just like I don't watch Simpsons anymore for contemporary politics and humor, I watch other stuff for that.

    Peter/Felicia Hardy would be as much of a rehash as Peter/MJ is. It's more or less repeating beats and stories and ideas from the 80s. The Flashbacks you cite in ASM#16.HU are set in the status-quo from the 80s. Symbiote Spider-Man also set in that period.

    The fact is you can't do too many things with a character like Spider-Man since a good part of his life, history, and overall arc is set in stone. Try and introduce too many new girlfriends, you end up making the character a playboy type and womanizer which as Joe Quesada said, "Peter being someone who "plays the field" for lack of a better word was never the intent and is way out of character." So you are going to have to him cycle through established girlfriends for romantic tension with maybe one or two new dates that go nowhere to soften the impression. So either way, it's going to rehash stuff anyway.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Peter/Mary Jane lasted for twenty years you know.
    And that's just 616. Counting MC2, RYV, and the daily strip over the decade before their demises, the marriage was in effect for 35 years, it lasted an extra eleven years, well past, and in spite of, OMD.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    But that also means that later writers are struggling to ground her in Peter's world since that unreality is a huge part of her character. Kevin Smith did a take which was just distasteful and later writers struggle to make her work.
    Oh boy. This series is a can of spid--worms.

    I agree for the most part regarding previous writers struggling with her character. The Evil that Men Do by Kevin Smith is at best a bizarre story and at worst abhorrently distasteful. The unconfirmed rumors surrounding the series postponement are even more disturbing—but it would be irresponsible to lend them any validity or speculation. That being said, at least the dialogue/interplay between Spider-Man and Black Cat is delightful and incredibly amusing.

    Conversely, if we seriously consider the events and revelations of The Evil that Men Do (portions of which I could do without) there is a profound impact on how one ought to view the relationship between Felicia Hardy and Peter Parker. Spider-Man, and consequently Peter, was the first man Felicia learned to trust and love wholeheartedly after being the victim of sexual assault. The circumstances behind the controversial series may be difficult to address, but this is certainly not an insignificant detail or lack of character development. I understand I will not be able to convince you otherwise, but Felicia Hardy is an interesting character who has developed from past experiences and learned to love Peter Parker. I consider aspects such as this to be engaging storytelling and not a copycat schematic of Catwoman as so many are quick to accuse.
    Last edited by KB06; 05-07-2019 at 11:42 AM.

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