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  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I didn't bring up the hypothetical, but yes, that is how hypothetical scenarios work.
    They only work if there's imagination to it, keeping all factors under consideration. You were being fairly dismissive of what MJ meant to the readership and the opinions of consumer and talent that would inform future decisions and which did. If you're going to say "If Gwen had lived, she'd marry Peter", back it up with something concrete.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    If you're going to say "If Gwen had lived, she'd marry Peter", back it up with something concrete.
    I didn’t say that.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I didn’t say that.
    It was an abridged version of saying "If Gwen had lived, the powers-that-be would have married her and Peter", I maintain that there were too many factors at the time to make that a hypothetical guarantee, and these are all points you're dismissing.

  4. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I didn't bring up the hypothetical, but yes, that is how hypothetical scenarios work.



    Audrey Hepburn, Grace Kelly? She was clearly being coded as glamorous.
    The model for MJ was Ann-Margaret. Very hot on tbe outside and the inside.

  5. #335

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    It's a fact that readers at the time (as PAD has mentioned in interviews) assumed that Gwen and Peter would eventually marry, and Peter mentally considered popping the question to her, and very nearly did in thought bubbles in ASM#99-100. It was part of the reason for that stupid plan of his to make a serum to remove his powers and only getting extra arms instead. So I get that people think that Peter and Gwen would marry since there was lead-in there. The actual decision to do that for real though, on the part of Lee and others wasn't there at the time. I mean Lee and Kirby weren't shy about marrying Reed and Sue. So for me the absence of follow-through was enough but the lead and set-up was there. And at the end of the day, Lee wanted a leading lady for the titles. He didn't think bringing in new girlfriends for Spider-Man was right. And after Gwen died and it became MJ, he didn't think there should be anyone else.

    I wonder how much Gwen's death colored how some fans saw MJ and a lot of that divides on how people remember The Night Gwen Stacy Died, whether they remembers ASM#121, or ASM#122. #122 implicitly transfers Gwen's role to MJ at the end in the epilogue, and the entire motif about MJ taking Gwen's place and the role and presence that Gwen has in their relationship and so on...that doesn't work with anyone else. It doesn't work with Felicia. A Peter/MJ love story allows you to touch on and connect different parts of Spider-Man history and brings it together. Bringing MJ and Peter together goes back to the story arc in the Ditko era where May and Anna Watson want to bring them together and May says she saw MJ as Peter's 'the one', you also hit on the early Romita era, and the end of a defining storyline like ASM#121-122, the First Clone Saga, the Alien Costume Saga (since the reveal that MJ knew his identity happened during that), then KLH, and the first appearance of Venom. That's a running thread of shared experiences and big moments. On the other hand, writers who remember ASM#121 have this sense that Gwen's death meant that Peter lost his true love and that he would never have been happy or make it work with anyone else. So for them overvaluing or putting Gwen on a pedestal isn't so much about Peter/Gwen shipping as it is about undermining Peter's later relationships and always ensuring to break them up. For these writers, Peter/MJ getting together undermines the stature of that story as is the idea that Peter got over Gwen's death (which btw, at the time...non-issue).

  6. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    It was an abridged version of saying "If Gwen had lived, the powers-that-be would have married her and Peter"
    Nope. Read what I wrote.

  7. #337
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    I like how in the most recent Trade had Peter and MJ going to Doc Connors’ lair to meet with his family for lunch....and how it seemed like they haven’t missed a beat.....yeah, as much as Editorial claims otherwise, Peter needs MJ in his life, someone who knows Peter and where he doesn’t have to worry about hiding Spider-Man from her, as she still knows......everything (even if OMD isn’t undone, I hope Mephisto’s claim of their marriage is.....that way perhaps they can get married (again overall, finally in the BND timeline))

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's a fact that readers at the time (as PAD has mentioned in interviews) assumed that Gwen and Peter would eventually marry, and Peter mentally considered popping the question to her, and very nearly did in thought bubbles in ASM#99-100. It was part of the reason for that stupid plan of his to make a serum to remove his powers and only getting extra arms instead. So I get that people think that Peter and Gwen would marry since there was lead-in there. The actual decision to do that for real though, on the part of Lee and others wasn't there at the time. I mean Lee and Kirby weren't shy about marrying Reed and Sue. So for me the absence of follow-through was enough but the lead and set-up was there. And at the end of the day, Lee wanted a leading lady for the titles. He didn't think bringing in new girlfriends for Spider-Man was right. And after Gwen died and it became MJ, he didn't think there should be anyone else.

    I wonder how much Gwen's death colored how some fans saw MJ and a lot of that divides on how people remember The Night Gwen Stacy Died, whether they remembers ASM#121, or ASM#122. #122 implicitly transfers Gwen's role to MJ at the end in the epilogue, and the entire motif about MJ taking Gwen's place and the role and presence that Gwen has in their relationship and so on...that doesn't work with anyone else. It doesn't work with Felicia. A Peter/MJ love story allows you to touch on and connect different parts of Spider-Man history and brings it together. Bringing MJ and Peter together goes back to the story arc in the Ditko era where May and Anna Watson want to bring them together and May says she saw MJ as Peter's 'the one', you also hit on the early Romita era, and the end of a defining storyline like ASM#121-122, the First Clone Saga, the Alien Costume Saga (since the reveal that MJ knew his identity happened during that), then KLH, and the first appearance of Venom. That's a running thread of shared experiences and big moments. On the other hand, writers who remember ASM#121 have this sense that Gwen's death meant that Peter lost his true love and that he would never have been happy or make it work with anyone else. So for them overvaluing or putting Gwen on a pedestal isn't so much about Peter/Gwen shipping as it is about undermining Peter's later relationships and always ensuring to break them up. For these writers, Peter/MJ getting together undermines the stature of that story as is the idea that Peter got over Gwen's death (which btw, at the time...non-issue).
    I think Peter seeing MJ as more then a friend started when she stayed to consul him after Gwen died (at the time, they didn’t reveal that MJ knew, just that she put her Party Girl side aside there), and it kinda grew from there......heck, they where just friends during the Alien Costume Saga, when MJ revealed that she knew and her less than perfect background, that she had almost as many problems as Peter......

    I liked how during Spider-Man Blue, Years later, MJ even told Peter to tell Gwen she said “hi”.

    In many ways, I viewed MJ as the better match for Peter.....Gwen, while his first love, I’m not sure how she would’ve reacted to his being Spider-Man......given the fact her father died during a fight with Doc Ock, and she blamed Spider-Man, I really don’t think it would have worked....yeah, I know there are Earth’s where they where together, but I’m talking the Classic Gwen....Classic 616 Gwen was a product of those times, even more Good Girl than Sue (Storm) Jean (Grey) Janet (Van Dyne) Jane (Foster, more so of the modern times and her role as Valkyrie) or Betty (Ross, as her various transformations, Harpy to Red She Hulk), as she was a normal human.......MJ was the Party Goer, with a hidden hard past......guess Peter identifies with someone who had a hard time like he did.....even if it’s subconscious

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    (I do think it's funny that Black Cat is an inversion of Peter/Gwen. Felicia loves Spider-Man, but is indifferent to Peter.)
    Back in the 80s, sure, but other than that it hadn't been that way in a long time, at least not until BND regressed her personality. She came around on admitting she boned up by letting Peter go in think in the 90s, I know for sure in the Evil That Men Do mini, reinforced throughout her supporting status in MK/Spectacular pre-OMD, and pretty much back again now in the present.
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  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Back in the 80s, sure, but other than that it hadn't been that way in a long time, at least not until BND regressed her personality. She came around on admitting she boned up by letting Peter go in think in the 90s, I know for sure in the Evil That Men Do mini, reinforced throughout her supporting status in MK/Spectacular pre-OMD, and pretty much back again now in the present.
    Honest question. Don't you think they'll go back to that dynamic? They've done it before, as you yourself already pointed out. It feels like Felicia only has this epiphany whenever Peter is off the table because of MJ.

  11. #341

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Honest question. Don't you think they'll go back to that dynamic? They've done it before, as you yourself already pointed out. It feels like Felicia only has this epiphany whenever Peter is off the table because of MJ.
    To me, Peter as Felicia's man who got away is pretty interesting. And that actually did make her character deep during the marriage. That bit in Michelinie' run where Venom attacks her and casually informs her that Spider-Man is married is quite sad and tragic for Felicia.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    To me, Peter as Felicia's man who got away is pretty interesting. And that actually did make her character deep during the marriage. That bit in Michelinie' run where Venom attacks her and casually informs her that Spider-Man is married is quite sad and tragic for Felicia.
    I wouldn't really say that was the point I felt sad for Felicia, just because literally right before that involved her framing him as revenge for breaking up for her, only to help him at the last minute and abandon him running away to Europe, and that instance was her returning months later expecting Peter to still be waiting for her, not realizing he had moved on. Not to mention the plan directly afterward to stalk and harass them by dating his best friend.

    It wasn't until after all that I think she became more sympathetic and interesting, when she realized she didn't need to be possessive over him and how much she just wanted Peter to be happy, and how she started to develop some true feelings for Flash, opened her up as a character. I really like how she realizes, no matter her true feelings for Peter, she effectively screwed up their relationship through her actions and decisions, and instead makes sure that she is there for him, even if she can't be with him.

    There's a moment in the Black Cat Hunted issue I think really speaks to that, when Peter gives her the box that's seemingly a wedding ring, only for it to be a tracker drone, and she is visibly upset about it, with Peter not sure why. Because he doesn't know the true extent to how much Felicia likes him, that based on her personality and outward actions she would seemingly just laugh off a wedding proposal like that.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  13. #343
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    It's still the kind of development that you can see vanishing in an instant the next time someone decides to play up Peter/Felicia. The hook of their relationship is Felicia loves Spider-Man, and doesn't care about Peter.

    We've seen developments like this vanish in an instant across various different characters under various different creators.

  14. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    To me, Peter as Felicia's man who got away is pretty interesting. And that actually did make her character deep during the marriage. That bit in Michelinie' run where Venom attacks her and casually informs her that Spider-Man is married is quite sad and tragic for Felicia.
    Oh that scene was so sad. I always feel bad for Felicia since she never gets a happy ending with Peter in any universe like Gwen and MJ do. Also, the art in that run/issue was awesome. I love the old-school huge hair thing.
    Captain of many ships, no matter how much you hate it!
    My Ships - Scott/Jean, Scott/Emma, Jean/Logan, Peter/MJ, Peter/Felicia, Peter/Gwen
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  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by KangMiRae View Post
    Oh that scene was so sad. I always feel bad for Felicia since she never gets a happy ending with Peter in any universe like Gwen and MJ do. Also, the art in that run/issue was awesome. I love the old-school huge hair thing.
    Wasn't she married with a kid or something in the MC2 comics?
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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