I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[Huntsman Spider]

Okay cool. I didn't know where that part came from. Thanks.

You're welcome.

[Mister Mets]

I admit to being hard core Pro-MJ. But the question still remains who tops MJ when it comes to Parker Women? Gwen? Felicia? Cindy? Betty? I mentioned some of tbe things I look for in a woman to show why I my opinoon she was and still is a good match for Peter. Perhaps Jarvis put it best when he said she is "Indispensable."

Fair enough. We've got multiple sub-arguments here. Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? Is Mary Jane Peter's most prominent love interest? Should Peter and Mary Jane be married in the comics? Sometimes these get tangled, but a comment on one isn't necessarily addressing another point.

[VolcanikTiger86]

Again I disagree. If you look at the cover of BND you see exactly the Peter that Slott and company wanted: A man child.who they were afraid of showing as an adult due to economic reasons ( aka fear of lower sales).

.
Well it is a business not that I don’t disagree with you about Peter’s development or even how he was written by Slott.

That is why they got rid of the marriage in 616, and they show him as Tony Stark Junior in the MCU.

The MCU is different from the comics and the reason I understood they got rid of the marriage is because they regret doing it in the first place.

Which was a mistake.

No, No, No you think it’s a mistake, doesn’t mean everyone agrees with you .

1: Understanding.

There were plenty of times that Mary Jane was written to not be understanding and actually hate how much time he spent as spidey, but this is easy to do for any character.

2: A good listen.

I think you mean listener but there are times that she didn’t listen nor care to

3: Can take home to relatives.

Considering Gwen wasn’t damaged enough for Conway, was a total babe and wish fulfillment and perfect don’t think this is really a issue.

4: Has a work ethic.

Any character can be written with a work ethic

5: Will stand by me.

There were plenty of times where she didn’t stand by him.

6: Is no gossip.

Is that a requirement for a healthy relationship

6: Can be fun.

Which can be done for any character

7: Is compatible.

Ok so MJ is compatible and no one else is WTF

8: Can cook.

I could be wrong but when did MJ cook

9: Would make a great mother.

Does that not depend on what you think makes a good mother

10:'Good looking.

Different strokes for different folks

11: Intelligent.

She was a ESU alongside Peter and MJ pretty sure Gwen was intelligent

12: Love.

Which for a fictional character is easy to write so look as you are engaged

Sounds like MJ was right when she told Pete "You hit the Jackpot." No need to "Play The Field" when he has everything he could possibly want in a woman ( and more) in MJ.

Are you serious, one of your arguments is that Peter is an everyman, yet he has a wife which ticks all of his boxes and he never has to comparison, is never challenged in his relationship sounds boring to me but of course you are forgetting that I never said I wanted him to play the field why do I even bother.

Because that's what you want that means it's what he wants otherwise he's a manchild and not an adult. Well, i can't argue with that logic ... but that's most because there isn't any there.

This is what I was talking about earlier

... also, is MJ really a good cook? I don't think I've ever seen evidence one or another.

I always thought that May did the cooking

Is the character supposed to get everything he wants and more in any category?

Would that not depend on wither you think he is a everyman and the reason for it

I admit to being hard core Pro-MJ.

Really I couldn’t possible tell, its not like it was that obvious at all.

But the question still remains who tops MJ when it comes to Parker Women? Gwen? Felicia? Cindy? Betty? I mentioned some of tbe things I look for in a woman to show why I my opinoon she was and still is a good match for Peter. Perhaps Jarvis put it best when he said she is "Indispensable."

Who can, MJ had 20 years plus as his wife which Marvel regret now people want reasons to be invested after one panel on the page and the only one that they don’t is MJ. Marvel wrote themselves into a corner that they can’t get out because the fans wont let them because some are very vocal pro-MJ and/or pro marriage.

Yeah, but he was referring to the 100% real Jarvis that showed up in ASM 9 and 10 hosting The Lookups, which was basically a support group for people close to superheroes that knew who those superheroes were and kept their secrets. That was the Jarvis that said to Mary Jane that, whoever the hero in her life was, she was indispensable to him.

So basically since Jarvis doesn’t know Peter is Spider-man he is giving MJ a compliment without any real facts of the whole situation.

Fair enough. We've got multiple sub-arguments here. Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? Is Mary Jane Peter's most prominent love interest? Should Peter and Mary Jane be married in the comics? Sometimes these get tangled, but a comment on one isn't necessarily addressing another point.

Couple you left out Mister Mets
Is Mary Jane Peters soul mate – I say no
Should Mary Jane be Peters only love interest – once again I say no
To answer the others as well
Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? – I think yes due to the time spent developing her which subsequent love interests haven’t been given
Is Mary Jane Peter's most prominent love interest? – Yes though recently Gwen is making a comeback while a little bit.
Should Peter and Mary Jane be married in the comics? – not surprising no.

[NC_Yankee]

.
Well it is a business not that I donÂ’t disagree with you about PeterÂ’s development or even how he was written by Slott.


The MCU is different from the comics and the reason I understood they got rid of the marriage is because they regret doing it in the first place.


No, No, No you think itÂ’s a mistake, doesnÂ’t mean everyone agrees with you .

There were plenty of times that Mary Jane was written to not be understanding and actually hate how much time he spent as spidey, but this is easy to do for any character.

I think you mean listener but there are times that she didnÂ’t listen nor care to

Considering Gwen wasnÂ’t damaged enough for Conway, was a total babe and wish fulfillment and perfect donÂ’t think this is really a issue.

Any character can be written with a work ethic

There were plenty of times where she didnÂ’t stand by him.

Is that a requirement for a healthy relationship

Which can be done for any character

Ok so MJ is compatible and no one else is WTF

I could be wrong but when did MJ cook

Does that not depend on what you think makes a good mother

Different strokes for different folks

She was a ESU alongside Peter and MJ pretty sure Gwen was intelligent

Which for a fictional character is easy to write so look as you are engaged


Are you serious, one of your arguments is that Peter is an everyman, yet he has a wife which ticks all of his boxes and he never has to comparison, is never challenged in his relationship sounds boring to me but of course you are forgetting that I never said I wanted him to play the field why do I even bother.


This is what I was talking about earlier


I always thought that May did the cooking


Would that not depend on wither you think he is a everyman and the reason for it

Really I couldnÂ’t possible tell, its not like it was that obvious at all.


Who can, MJ had 20 years plus as his wife which Marvel regret now people want reasons to be invested after one panel on the page and the only one that they donÂ’t is MJ. Marvel wrote themselves into a corner that they canÂ’t get out because the fans wont let them because some are very vocal pro-MJ and/or pro marriage.


So basically since Jarvis doesnÂ’t know Peter is Spider-man he is giving MJ a compliment without any real facts of the whole situation.

Couple you left out Mister Mets
Is Mary Jane Peters soul mate – I say no
Should Mary Jane be Peters only love interest – once again I say no
To answer the others as well
Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? – I think yes due to the time spent developing her which subsequent love interests haven’t been given
Is Mary Jane Peter's most prominent love interest? – Yes though recently Gwen is making a comeback while a little bit.
Should Peter and Mary Jane be married in the comics? – not surprising no.

Rebuttal points: 1:In one paragraph, ypu said I never said I wanted him to play the field" then you say "No to Mary Jane being his only love interest." That is called "Playing the field." 2: Gwen is making a comeback. Ghost Spider-Gwen is a different character then 616 Gwen so she does not count. Maybe when Emma Stone played Gwen that argument might have worked, but in 2019... Not valid. 3: You say MJ is not Pete's true love. Well then if she is not. Who if anybody is? 4: Jarvis gave MJ a compliment because of the kind of person she is. That should be a good thing instead you chose to dismiss it. 5: There is nothing wrong with fans taking sides ( pro or con) on Peter and his supporting cast including the women ( MJ is in that category). If fans did not care then Spider-Man ( Pete) would no longer be published, fimed, played on Play Station, or watched on TV (cartoons). Why? Economics. Keeping fans happy ( as well as cultvating new ones) are issues that corporations ( like Disney) are concerned about.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Who can, MJ had 20 years plus as his wife which Marvel regret now people want reasons to be invested after one panel on the page and the only one that they don’t is MJ. Marvel wrote themselves into a corner that they can’t get out because the fans wont let them because some are very vocal pro-MJ and/or pro marriage.

Even before the marriage, Mary Jane was still the most popular and most prominently featured love interest across the franchise. The marriage happened because fans at a Chicago Convention asked Stan Lee about marrying Peter and MJ specifically, not married in general.

She was one of the most prominent recurring characters in Spider-Man even then. The marriage simply confirmed what already existed.

Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? – I think yes due to the time spent developing her which subsequent love interests haven’t been given

Given your answers to the other question, if you agree that MJ is Peter's best love interest why are you opposed to them being married or soul mates.

[VolcanikTiger86]

1:In one paragraph, ypu said I never said I wanted him to play the field" then you say "No to Mary Jane being his only love interest." That is called "Playing the field."

You and I have different ideas of what Playing the field means, to me playing the field is having a different love interest every week and never getting emotional invested which is the opposite of what I said. Ok better question in your mind does Archie play the field, as fans we have 3 choices Betty, Veronica or Betty/Veronica and we could still say it was or could happen in cannon we can’t do that in spider-man in a while

2: Gwen is making a comeback. Ghost Spider-Gwen is a different character then 616 Gwen so she does not count. Maybe when Emma Stone played Gwen that argument might have worked, but in 2019... Not valid.

You see this is the problem when you pull this stuff, what argument are you dismissing as not valid and why. You have me confused because I answer 13 points that you said you looked for in a woman, btw if Ghost Spider was aged up she very much would count and you wouldn’t need to age her up by much. Unless you are answering back about how Gwen was making a comeback: question why exactly are you going out of your way to piss me off I said yes to that for multi reasons 1) Conway decided to kill her, Conway didn’t like her but like MJ 3) because marvel didn’t change it for 20 years and even made so called “mistakes” in that time and now the ‘fans’ wont let anyone have the same amount of time to develop.

3: You say MJ is not Pete's true love. Well then if she is not. Who if anybody is?

As a fictional character it should depend on the fans and their version of spider-man, I could say that Gwen is Pete’s true love and you can say MJ is and neither of us is wrong

4: Jarvis gave MJ a compliment because of the kind of person she is. That should be a good thing instead you chose to dismiss it.

I asked a question because I wanted to clarify something that’s not dismissing the compliment for example I could say that I know someone who is a good guy but when I’m not around he beats his girlfriend why because I don’t know the full story. Appearances can be deceiving so I wanted to clarify so I asked the question or that is what I intended.

5: There is nothing wrong with fans taking sides ( pro or con) on Peter and his supporting cast including the women ( MJ is in that category). If fans did not care then Spider-Man ( Pete) would no longer be published, fimed, played on Play Station, or watched on TV (cartoons). Why? Economics. Keeping fans happy ( as well as cultvating new ones) are issues that corporations ( like Disney) are concerned about.

When did I say they was something wrong with taking sides, I have issues with how extreme some fans can get, how some of their logic is to me messed up like Peter sold his marriage to the devil where Peter and Mary Jane sold their marriage but marriage fans will punish peter and protect MJ reminds me of Olicity which is not a good thing from my P.OV or how the ‘real’ spider-man is only married to MJ that’s it any other nope Peter has to be married to MJ as if it is a written law set in stone for the whole multiverse which annoys me because that’s not my spider-man and you deman and disrespect me because my spider-man is different from yours because you know best for reasons.

Even before the marriage, Mary Jane was still the most popular and most prominently featured love interest across the franchise. The marriage happened because fans at a Chicago Convention asked Stan Lee about marrying Peter and MJ specifically, not married in general.

I didn’t think there was any other reason that could be found for me to not like the pairing but thanks Jack you have found it. Because some people from Chicago asked for it we got it for 20 odd years yeah not a fan of fans making creative choices because a) they can become vocal b) they can be found to be entitled c) it can cut off creative freedom.

She was one of the most prominent recurring characters in Spider-Man even then. The marriage simply confirmed what already existed.

What are you talking about, Conway developed her after Gwen was killed, I didn’t think she was that prominent before that especially compared to Gwen at the time but the optics are coloured by Conway’s hatred for the character or maybe dislike one of the two.

Given your answers to the other question, if you agree that MJ is Peter's best love interest why are you opposed to them being married or soul mates.

Do I need to go over this again, there isn’t a relationship in Spider-Man that can compare to the length of development as I explained if you bothered to read my last post
Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? – I think yes due to the time spent developing her which subsequent love interests haven’t been given
So basically no relationship has been developed as much because pro marriage fans wont allow it.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Because some people from Chicago asked for it we got it for 20 odd years yeah not a fan of fans making creative choices because a) they can become vocal b) they can be found to be entitled c) it can cut off creative freedom.

It was Stan Lee and Jim Shooter who both made that choice after seeing how immensely popular that was. The choice of marriage was also welcomed by Spider-Man's editor at the time Jim Salicrup (considered by both Roger Stern and David Michelinie to be the best editor on Spider-Man titles) and a good number of other writers too (PAD, JMD).

What are you talking about, Conway developed her after Gwen was killed, I didn’t think she was that prominent before that especially compared to Gwen at the time but the optics are coloured by Conway’s hatred for the character or maybe dislike one of the two.

Mary Jane was popular since her first appearance. Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. kept getting letters asking why are they foisting this romance between Peter and Gwen when MJ was more interesting. Stan Lee has talked about this number of times. Lee's solution to this was writing MJ out of the books which he did between issues 60 to around 85 or so, where for some 25 issues MJ wasn't there in the titles. But that didn't work. He also gave MJ a weird haircut and made Gwen look more like her.

Gwen Stacy was a remarkably unpopular character when she was alive. She was especially unpopular among women. Take a look at the letters pages at the time: "I never imagined you could actually kill Gwen. You have more intelligence then I gave you credit for. I fervently hope Gwen doesn't make a miraculous recovery in #122 (or in any subsequent issues). I also hope Peter doesn't mourn her too long...how long can he grieve over a person whose brain was constructed entirely out of old Pepsi bottles and whose personality had the exact color, consistency, and flavor of a loaf of Wonder Bread?"
— Jane C. Hollingsworth, Letter to the Editor, "The Spider's Web" Column, published in Amazing Spider-Man, #125

Sure there was a contingent of fans who sent angry letters to Lee asking about Gwen's death (and driven more by Peter seeming to "fail" her then her dying). But in general, fans were never too fond of the character.

Is Mary Jane Peter's best love interest? – I think yes due to the time spent developing her which subsequent love interests haven’t been given
So basically no relationship has been developed as much because pro marriage fans wont allow it.

The question should then be asked what exactly led Mary Jane to be developed into the complex shaded character that she's become. For one thing it isn't the case that it's been done exclusively by people invested in the romance or marriage. Roger Stern was the man who invented her backstory and background and while he likes MJ as a character and writes her well, he's never really believed that she and Peter were meant to be together as a couple leave alone a marriage (he also feels this way about Gwen and Felicia too).

The thing that distinguishes Mary Jane is that she's an outstanding example of a character who's taken a life of her own, independent of and often in contradiction to the creator's interests. That kind of thing can't really be repeated or copied for any character.

[NC_Yankee]

It was Stan Lee and Jim Shooter who both made that choice after seeing how immensely popular that was. The choice of marriage was also welcomed by Spider-Man's editor at the time Jim Salicrup (considered by both Roger Stern and David Michelinie to be the best editor on Spider-Man titles) and a good number of other writers too (PAD, JMD).



Mary Jane was popular since her first appearance. Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. kept getting letters asking why are they foisting this romance between Peter and Gwen when MJ was more interesting. Stan Lee has talked about this number of times. Lee's solution to this was writing MJ out of the books which he did between issues 60 to around 85 or so, where for some 25 issues MJ wasn't there in the titles. But that didn't work. He also gave MJ a weird haircut and made Gwen look more like her.

Gwen Stacy was a remarkably unpopular character when she was alive. She was especially unpopular among women. Take a look at the letters pages at the time: "I never imagined you could actually kill Gwen. You have more intelligence then I gave you credit for. I fervently hope Gwen doesn't make a miraculous recovery in #122 (or in any subsequent issues). I also hope Peter doesn't mourn her too long...how long can he grieve over a person whose brain was constructed entirely out of old Pepsi bottles and whose personality had the exact color, consistency, and flavor of a loaf of Wonder Bread?"
— Jane C. Hollingsworth, Letter to the Editor, "The Spider's Web" Column, published in Amazing Spider-Man, #125

Sure there was a contingent of fans who sent angry letters to Lee asking about Gwen's death (and driven more by Peter seeming to "fail" her then her dying). But in general, fans were never too fond of the character.



The question should then be asked what exactly led Mary Jane to be developed into the complex shaded character that she's become. For one thing it isn't the case that it's been done exclusively by people invested in the romance or marriage. Roger Stern was the man who invented her backstory and background and while he likes MJ as a character and writes her well, he's never really believed that she and Peter were meant to be together as a couple leave alone a marriage (he also feels this way about Gwen and Felicia too).

The thing that distinguishes Mary Jane is that she's an outstanding example of a character who's taken a life of her own, independent of and often in contradiction to the creator's interests. That kind of thing can't really be repeated or copied for any character.

I agree with you 100%. It is interesting how every time Marvel wants to get rid of MJ ( for whatever reason) they have to bring her back. Why? Because when well written she is a great character, who improves the comic and most people know it. Let me tell a story: Many years ago, Hal Roach wanted to get new and cheaper characters for The Little Rascals ( like when he replaced Jackie Cooper and other his group of Rascals). Spanky, Alfalfa, Darla, Buckwheat and the rest were let go. The problem became they needed someone LIKE Spanky, but they could not find one. So guess what? They brought Spanky back until tbe series ended. Gwen is basically like Jackie, Alfalfa and the rest easily replacable. How so? 616 Gwen has been gone since 1973 but Amazing lives on. But MJ is like Spanky: Not so easy to find another one of her ( try as they may with Felicia, Cindy and the rest).

[VolcanikTiger86]

It was Stan Lee and Jim Shooter who both made that choice after seeing how immensely popular that was.

Ok I have had some relaxing time so I’m going to try and do explain this better. Stan Legend that he is also still human, he has gone on record with this. He wouldn’t have had Peter graduate high school if he knew how popular he would be and as such no marriage would have been forthcoming however what I am curious about is how they determine how popular she is now against how popular she was then. Basically is she still as popular as she was after Slott, how were the sales impacted during brand new day considering that the book has consistently been published and to the best of my knowledge only relaunched because of initiatives then maybe she isn’t as needed as the pro marriage fans would like us to think .

The choice of marriage was also welcomed by Spider-Man's editor at the time Jim Salicrup (considered by both Roger Stern and David Michelinie to be the best editor on Spider-Man titles) and a good number of other writers too (PAD, JMD).

Yet in these very forums we have been told by the writer at the time that the marriage was a mistake. Granted this decision was decided when I was 1, the question is should all spider-man fans who either dislike or don’t care for the marriage suffer because a vocal portion will only accept the marriage and nothing else.

Mary Jane was popular since her first appearance.

Well that depends please remember that before her first full appearance, she had partial appearances and was mentioned by other characters basically MJ was written to succeed. Liz and Betty meet her and was blown away saying they couldn’t compete with her which in my mind was massive shilling, maybe the plan was for her to be a foil to Gwen and for Gwen to win but then again Conway didn’t like Gwen and then killed her off the first chance he got, btw yes I blame Conway because he didn’t like the character and he pitched for her to die, he made the decision to do so because he wanted to write Peter/MJ

Stan Lee and John Romita Sr. kept getting letters asking why are they foisting this romance between Peter and Gwen when MJ was more interesting. Stan Lee has talked about this number of times. Lee's solution to this was writing MJ out of the books which he did between issues 60 to around 85 or so, where for some 25 issues MJ wasn't there in the titles. But that didn't work. He also gave MJ a weird haircut and made Gwen look more like her.

As much as I don’t like talking ill of the dead but as respectfully as possible, that’s not my problem. My problem is that we have a vocal portion of the fanbase who refuse anything that isn’t Peter/MJ and of course we have the extreme marriage fans who refuse to read Spider-Man until the marriage is restored which Marvel have gone on record isn’t happening.

Gwen Stacy was a remarkably unpopular character when she was alive. She was especially unpopular among women.

Once again not my problem, so Gwen was unpopular and uninteresting well here is an idea make her interesting preferable without tying her to any of peter’s enemies.

Take a look at the letters pages at the time: "I never imagined you could actually kill Gwen. You have more intelligence then I gave you credit for. I fervently hope Gwen doesn't make a miraculous recovery in #122 (or in any subsequent issues). I also hope Peter doesn't mourn her too long...how long can he grieve over a person whose brain was constructed entirely out of old Pepsi bottles and whose personality had the exact color, consistency, and flavor of a loaf of Wonder Bread?"
— Jane C. Hollingsworth, Letter to the Editor, "The Spider's Web" Column, published in Amazing Spider-Man, #125

This actually disgusts me no I mean this actually sickens me; if this is the type of fan that Marvel want then maybe I should consider dropping Marvel, I can’t beginning to tell you what wrong with this letter I personally think Ms Hollingsworth needs help. It might be the time but I also thought that the 60’s were free spirited

Sure there was a contingent of fans who sent angry letters to Lee asking about Gwen's death (and driven more by Peter seeming to "fail" her then her dying). But in general, fans were never too fond of the character.

So because fans over 50 years ago decided that Gwen wasn’t a good character then I have to accept their view as my own because before I was even $%^&%$$ born someone decided that Peter’s soulmate was a character who was written to succeed and was given plenty of opportunity and development and then helped sell her marriage to a mother$%^&^$# devil like persona and was never made to suffer for it by the vocal pro marriage fans but Peter the character gets both barrels I’m suppose to go sure why not. Do I even need to give an answer to that.

The question should then be asked what exactly led Mary Jane to be developed into the complex shaded character that she's become. For one thing it isn't the case that it's been done exclusively by people invested in the romance or marriage. Roger Stern was the man who invented her backstory and background and while he likes MJ as a character and writes her well, he's never really believed that she and Peter were meant to be together as a couple leave alone a marriage (he also feels this way about Gwen and Felicia too).

But that’s not the question of the thread, matter of fact CTTT doesn’t seem to like Peter/MJ. Anyway the question of how she was developed is quite simple Gerry Conway liked her and didn’t like Gwen and each writer after that wasn’t that dissatisfied with the status quo to change it until OMD became a thing. Now we will more than likely get another ten years of will they wont they from Peter/MJ because of decisions that were made before I was a twinkle in my mothers eye because a section of the fanbase will accept nothing else.

The thing that distinguishes Mary Jane is that she's an outstanding example of a character who's taken a life of her own, independent of and often in contradiction to the creator's interests. That kind of thing can't really be repeated or copied for any character.

You sure about that because the comics I have read she was always written to succeed especially once Conway got her.

I agree with you 100%.

Color me shocked [sarcasm]

It is interesting how every time Marvel wants to get rid of MJ ( for whatever reason) they have to bring her back. Why? Because when well written she is a great character, who improves the comic and most people know it.

When you have a supporting character written well then obviously they improve the comic that’s what a good supporting character does its not exclusive to MJ.

Let me tell a story: Many years ago, Hal Roach wanted to get new and cheaper characters for The Little Rascals ( like when he replaced Jackie Cooper and other his group of Rascals). Spanky, Alfalfa, Darla, Buckwheat and the rest were let go. The problem became they needed someone LIKE Spanky, but they could not find one. So guess what? They brought Spanky back until tbe series ended. Gwen is basically like Jackie, Alfalfa and the rest easily replacable. How so? 616 Gwen has been gone since 1973 but Amazing lives on. But MJ is like Spanky: Not so easy to find another one of her ( try as they may with Felicia, Cindy and the rest).

One sorry but I hated your story Two I think that is the main issue with Spider-Man, pro MJ loyalists wanted the marriage, want Peter with MJ because they believe she is irreplaceable and as a creative writer I have to say I disagree. What I want is well written stories that’s it maybe I get them with Peter/MJ or Peter/Gwen or Peter/Carol or Peter/Natasha don’t care but I just want good quality stories about Spider-Man for me there is only one irreplaceable character and its Peter because it is his story everything else open to writers whim.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Ok I have had some relaxing time so I’m going to try and do explain this better. Stan Legend that he is also still human, he has gone on record with this. He wouldn’t have had Peter graduate high school if he knew how popular he would be

That quote has never been directly traced to him. It was related second hand by Marvel editors and others. I am sure Lee when pressed on that would say that because he tends to agree with whatever people want him to say. So when quoting Stan Lee one must always be careful about his interlocutors, and measure what he says with his actual actions, his follow-through and general tendencies. Lee when left to himself was always someone who wanted natural progression and development. The idea behind that is also absurd when you consider the reality. There's an actual objective answer to this nostrum of "Peter wouldn't have graduated high school if Lee knew his comics were successful". That answer is no.

The truth is that while Spider-Man was successful, the sales increased slowly and it increased to a much higher extent after Peter graduated high school and went to college. The later Ditko era with Peter in college and the Romita era after Ditko sold better than the high school era. If Spider-Man had remained in high school he would not have been as successful.. Likewise anyone who has read the Lee/Ditko run will notice the obvious fact that very little of that run takes place in high school or regularly features high school supporting cast. Most of it is focused on Peter's time at the Daily Bugle. So even when Peter was in high school in the L-D era, he wasn't really in high school. The idea that teenage Spider-Man works is also not supported by reality. Look at the '90s, stuff like Untold Tales of Spider-Man was a moderate cult success, John Byrne's planned attempt to reboot Spider-Man to a permanent high school status with Chapter One bombed hard. Ultimate Spider-Man was the proverbial "third time's the charm" and it's success is because of a host of elements (updating the setting, AU which reimagines familiar stories and characters, Bendis) that don't have anything to do with Peter being in high school. Likewise, until Greg Weisman's Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, every Spider-man cartoon, without exception, showed him as a college kid. In the movies, Maguire's Peter is in high school for the first half of Raimi's Spider-Man 1, but rest of the trilogy he's in college. Garfield graduates at the start of the second Amazing movie. Tom Holland is unique for being and remaining a teenager for an entire trilogy and subsidiary MCU appearances. Into the Spider-Verse -- Both the Peter Parkers there are older and married. If you look at Spider-Man video games, only the USM adaptation video game has Peter as a teenager. Everything else -- adult/college kid.

however what I am curious about is how they determine how popular she is now against how popular she was then.

There were a bunch of fan awards called the Alley Awards given by comics fans in the '60s. In 1966, MJ's first year of appearance and eligibility, she got an Alley Award for Best Supporting Character (female) alongside Jameson who won Best Supporting Character (male). In the 1967 Spider-Man cartoon, Mary Jane showed up in an episode in the third season, while Gwen never did. And that was a "new" character since that TV Show focused mainly on the very early Ditko era only going into the (then) contemporary era. Mary Jane also appeared alongside Jameson in the highly successful and influential Marvel/DC crossover Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man. She appeared alongside Peter in the Hostess cakes ads, she was the main love interest that appeared in the newspaper strip which actually had a big non-comics readership back in the day. Not everyone collects comics but everyone, back then, read newspapers. Mary Jane was also, along with Jameson, one of the only Spider-Man supporting characters who regularly showed up in small cameos here and there in non-Spider-Man, general Marvel-wide books. Making cameos in Fantastic Four, Daredevil, and other titles. She was also the host of Red Sonja. She also along with Jameson made most appearances for any supporting character in the period before her marriage.

This by the way in a period when the comics market and readership was several times higher than what it is now. In a period where 616 was the main deal as opposed to the plethora of AU you now have and so on. More eyeballs have read the married Spider-man than will ever read the Post-BND era. That's a fact.

Basically is she still as popular as she was after Slott, how were the sales impacted during brand new day considering that the book has consistently been published and to the best of my knowledge only relaunched because of initiatives then maybe she isn’t as needed as the pro marriage fans would like us to think .

Comics readership and markets shrunk dramatically across the board so it's kind of hard to say. We also don't have numbers digitally. The other thing is that Mary Jane is still a prominent part of Spider-Man titles Post-OMD, and made a lot of appearances in that period and a constant tease was the idea of OMD being reversed, so the sales of Spider-Man won't indicate that MJ is unpopular or people have moved past OMD since a lot of readership are likely reading in the hope of an eventual payoff and reversal to the previous status-quo. Like Spider-Island was the event that was almost unanimously liked among Slott's earlier run, but that comic ends with an affirmation of Peter and MJ's bond and Mary Jane plays a huge role in the climax. And this was remarked on. As for how popular MJ still is, let's look at one indicator. The Spider-Man PS4 game that became all the rage and sold like hot cakes takes a lot of inspiration from Slott's run, including Big Time and Spider-Island, and yet it used Mary Jane rather than Carlie Cooper (who is the love interest in Big Time and Spider-Island).

And then you have Renew Your Vows, an AU Series which notable in some of its issues, actually outsold the main ASM issue that month. It's almost impossible for an AU to outsell the main 616 story. The last time that happened before was Ultimate Spider-Man.

Yet in these very forums we have been told by the writer at the time that the marriage was a mistake.

David Michelinie said he thought so at the time but he later came to enjoy writing the marriage and he's happy to have done so. Other writers at the time, PAD, and JMD, both welcomed it. Most of the Spider-Man editorial and writing team at the time welcomed the marriage. Tom Defalco opposed it initially but he also came around and as EIC who succeeded Shooter and as such had total authority to shut down the marriage before it became big, he let it continue for his 7 year regime.

Once again not my problem, so Gwen was unpopular and uninteresting well here is an idea make her interesting preferable without tying her to any of peter’s enemies.

Gwen Stacy had more than 50 issues under Stan Lee's run to be made interesting and he tried everything to do so. I think people would agree that's enough chances given to a supporting character.

It might be the time but I also thought that the 60’s were free spirited

Well, considering that Gwen Stacy supported a white supremacist in ASM #91-92, maybe the condemnation of her by some of the fans is in fact rooted in that free-spiritedness. Gwen Stacy is a dutiful daughter of a police captain, she's rich and blonde, her entire time with Peter revolves entirely around him with no goals of her own, she bullied Aunt May, and she flirted with white supremacy. Those are all stuff that happened in-page in the entire run of Lee-Romita.

So because fans over 50 years ago decided that Gwen wasn’t a good character then I have to accept their view as my own

Have you actually read the Lee-Romita era Gwen? I have. So I can totally see why she was so unpopular. But has anyone here actually read those stories? I don't think people can logically complain about "we were denied Gwen" if they haven't read the Gwen they were denied. Spider-Gwen she ain't.

You sure about that because the comics I have read she was always written to succeed especially once Conway got her.

Conway wrote that romance well but he went off after ASM#149, and then writers after him took over and MJ as a character suffered under Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. Marv Wolfman actually hated Mary Jane as a character and wrote her out of the books for some 40 issues until Roger Stern brought her back in the '80s and Stern, unwittingly and unintentionally, set her on the path to ultimately become Peter's wife.

Mary Jane was written out of the books multiple times but she's always come back stronger than ever. There was nothing inevitable about it. She lasted long because she was able to constantly get new fans and renew her popularity multiple times.

[NC_Yankee]

That quote has never been directly traced to him. It was related second hand by Marvel editors and others. I am sure Lee when pressed on that would say that because he tends to agree with whatever people want him to say. So when quoting Stan Lee one must always be careful about his interlocutors, and measure what he says with his actual actions, his follow-through and general tendencies. Lee when left to himself was always someone who wanted natural progression and development. The idea behind that is also absurd when you consider the reality. There's an actual objective answer to this nostrum of "Peter wouldn't have graduated high school if Lee knew his comics were successful". That answer is no.

The truth is that while Spider-Man was successful, the sales increased slowly and it increased to a much higher extent after Peter graduated high school and went to college. The later Ditko era with Peter in college and the Romita era after Ditko sold better than the high school era. If Spider-Man had remained in high school he would not have been as successful.. Likewise anyone who has read the Lee/Ditko run will notice the obvious fact that very little of that run takes place in high school or regularly features high school supporting cast. Most of it is focused on Peter's time at the Daily Bugle. So even when Peter was in high school in the L-D era, he wasn't really in high school. The idea that teenage Spider-Man works is also not supported by reality. Look at the '90s, stuff like Untold Tales of Spider-Man was a moderate cult success, John Byrne's planned attempt to reboot Spider-Man to a permanent high school status with Chapter One bombed hard. Ultimate Spider-Man was the proverbial "third time's the charm" and it's success is because of a host of elements (updating the setting, AU which reimagines familiar stories and characters, Bendis) that don't have anything to do with Peter being in high school. Likewise, until Greg Weisman's Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon, every Spider-man cartoon, without exception, showed him as a college kid. In the movies, Maguire's Peter is in high school for the first half of Raimi's Spider-Man 1, but rest of the trilogy he's in college. Garfield graduates at the start of the second Amazing movie. Tom Holland is unique for being and remaining a teenager for an entire trilogy and subsidiary MCU appearances. Into the Spider-Verse -- Both the Peter Parkers there are older and married. If you look at Spider-Man video games, only the USM adaptation video game has Peter as a teenager. Everything else -- adult/college kid.



There were a bunch of fan awards called the Alley Awards given by comics fans in the '60s. In 1966, MJ's first year of appearance and eligibility, she got an Alley Award for Best Supporting Character (female) alongside Jameson who won Best Supporting Character (male). In the 1967 Spider-Man cartoon, Mary Jane showed up in an episode in the third season, while Gwen never did. And that was a "new" character since that TV Show focused mainly on the very early Ditko era only going into the (then) contemporary era. Mary Jane also appeared alongside Jameson in the highly successful and influential Marvel/DC crossover Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man. She appeared alongside Peter in the Hostess cakes ads, she was the main love interest that appeared in the newspaper strip which actually had a big non-comics readership back in the day. Not everyone collects comics but everyone, back then, read newspapers. Mary Jane was also, along with Jameson, one of the only Spider-Man supporting characters who regularly showed up in small cameos here and there in non-Spider-Man, general Marvel-wide books. Making cameos in Fantastic Four, Daredevil, and other titles. She was also the host of Red Sonja. She also along with Jameson made most appearances for any supporting character in the period before her marriage.

This by the way in a period when the comics market and readership was several times higher than what it is now. In a period where 616 was the main deal as opposed to the plethora of AU you now have and so on. More eyeballs have read the married Spider-man than will ever read the Post-BND era. That's a fact.



Comics readership and markets shrunk dramatically across the board so it's kind of hard to say. We also don't have numbers digitally. The other thing is that Mary Jane is still a prominent part of Spider-Man titles Post-OMD, and made a lot of appearances in that period and a constant tease was the idea of OMD being reversed, so the sales of Spider-Man won't indicate that MJ is unpopular or people have moved past OMD since a lot of readership are likely reading in the hope of an eventual payoff and reversal to the previous status-quo. Like Spider-Island was the event that was almost unanimously liked among Slott's earlier run, but that comic ends with an affirmation of Peter and MJ's bond and Mary Jane plays a huge role in the climax. And this was remarked on. As for how popular MJ still is, let's look at one indicator. The Spider-Man PS4 game that became all the rage and sold like hot cakes takes a lot of inspiration from Slott's run, including Big Time and Spider-Island, and yet it used Mary Jane rather than Carlie Cooper (who is the love interest in Big Time and Spider-Island).

And then you have Renew Your Vows, an AU Series which notable in some of its issues, actually outsold the main ASM issue that month. It's almost impossible for an AU to outsell the main 616 story. The last time that happened before was Ultimate Spider-Man.



David Michelinie said he thought so at the time but he later came to enjoy writing the marriage and he's happy to have done so. Other writers at the time, PAD, and JMD, both welcomed it. Most of the Spider-Man editorial and writing team at the time welcomed the marriage. Tom Defalco opposed it initially but he also came around and as EIC who succeeded Shooter and as such had total authority to shut down the marriage before it became big, he let it continue for his 7 year regime.



Gwen Stacy had more than 50 issues under Stan Lee's run to be made interesting and he tried everything to do so. I think people would agree that's enough chances given to a supporting character.



Well, considering that Gwen Stacy supported a white supremacist in ASM #91-92, maybe the condemnation of her by some of the fans is in fact rooted in that free-spiritedness. Gwen Stacy is a dutiful daughter of a police captain, she's rich and blonde, her entire time with Peter revolves entirely around him with no goals of her own, she bullied Aunt May, and she flirted with white supremacy. Those are all stuff that happened in-page in the entire run of Lee-Romita.



Have you actually read the Lee-Romita era Gwen? I have. So I can totally see why she was so unpopular. But has anyone here actually read those stories? I don't think people can logically complain about "we were denied Gwen" if they haven't read the Gwen they were denied. Spider-Gwen she ain't.



Conway wrote that romance well but he went off after ASM#149, and then writers after him took over and MJ as a character suffered under Len Wein and Marv Wolfman. Marv Wolfman actually hated Mary Jane as a character and wrote her out of the books for some 40 issues until Roger Stern brought her back in the '80s and Stern, unwittingly and unintentionally, set her on the path to ultimately become Peter's wife.

Mary Jane was written out of the books multiple times but she's always come back stronger than ever. There was nothing inevitable about it. She lasted long because she was able to constantly get new fans and renew her popularity multiple times.

That is exactly right. As for Gwen, it is fair to say that Conway and even Romita before him ( see Bullett, Sam as Exhibit: A) were not big fans of 616 Gwen, but many writters had the opportunity to bring her back since 1973 ( especially after the popularity of Emma Stone), and elected not to do so. Even in 2019, they could have aged Ghost-Spider Gwen to Peter's Age, to hook them up and chose not to.Why? Marvel knows the Pete/Gwen romance ship has passed. As for Felicia, Spencer chose to let her know about the marriage. Why? Because she is leaving the book ( just like Cindy did ) Thank God Cindy is gone)). Who is left standing? MJ. Does it mean the marriage returns? Not necessarily, but for the first time since OMD there is hope.

[Annie Parker]

No one gets Peter more than MJ and he knows it.

Peter dating other women makes no sense when he knows who his perfect match is.

[VolcanikTiger86]

That quote has never been directly traced to him. It was related second hand by Marvel editors and others. I am sure Lee when pressed on that would say that because he tends to agree with whatever people want him to say. So when quoting Stan Lee one must always be careful about his interlocutors, and measure what he says with his actual actions, his follow-through and general tendencies. Lee when left to himself was always someone who wanted natural progression and development.

I like progression and good quality stories however in my opinion comics have an issue that you can’t progress them too far because it’s an ongoing story with no know end date.

The idea behind that is also absurd when you consider the reality. There's an actual objective answer to this nostrum of "Peter wouldn't have graduated high school if Lee knew his comics were successful". That answer is no.

You know this annoys me because maybe he would have been maybe he wont; we don’t know because Stan did have him graduated high school and then college. You can’t guess what would have happened in hindsight unless it happened. The question of what if is a destructive one and should be taken with a grain of salt.

The truth is that while Spider-Man was successful, the sales increased slowly and it increased to a much higher extent after Peter graduated high school and went to college. The later Ditko era with Peter in college and the Romita era after Ditko sold better than the high school era. If Spider-Man had remained in high school he would not have been as successful.. Likewise anyone who has read the Lee/Ditko run will notice the obvious fact that very little of that run takes place in high school or regularly features high school supporting cast. Most of it is focused on Peter's time at the Daily Bugle. So even when Peter was in high school in the L-D era, he wasn't really in high school.

Ok fair enough but a lot of that era also focused on the Parker’s money troubles and Aunt May’s health which didn’t happen one because she was dead or b Peter no longer had to cope with it on his own and the fact that he moved out of her house was another factor.

The idea that teenage Spider-Man works is also not supported by reality.

Ok look you are preaching to the choir, I just supplied a what if Peter never left high school would he have got married when he did not likely though stranger things have happened.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4415100]There were a bunch of fan awards called the Alley Awards given by comics fans in the '60s. In 1966, MJ's first year of appearance and eligibility, she got an Alley Award for Best Supporting Character (female) alongside Jameson who won Best Supporting Character (male).
The benefits of character shilling, lets be honest she was mentioned in AF15 and had partial appearances before she was introduced in which Liz and Betty said and I quote “I can never compare to her” end quote before we know anything

In the 1967 Spider-Man cartoon, Mary Jane showed up in an episode in the third season, while Gwen never did.

Ok back to Gwen vs MJ good to know.

And that was a "new" character since that TV Show focused mainly on the very early Ditko era only going into the (then) contemporary era. Mary Jane also appeared alongside Jameson in the highly successful and influential Marvel/DC crossover Superman vs. The Amazing Spider-Man. She appeared alongside Peter in the Hostess cakes ads, she was the main love interest that appeared in the newspaper strip which actually had a big non-comics readership back in the day. Not everyone collects comics but everyone, back then, read newspapers. Mary Jane was also, along with Jameson, one of the only Spider-Man supporting characters who regularly showed up in small cameos here and there in non-Spider-Man, general Marvel-wide books. Making cameos in Fantastic Four, Daredevil, and other titles. She was also the host of Red Sonja. She also along with Jameson made most appearances for any supporting character in the period before her marriage.

Hard to make appearances when you are dead unless you are going to do flashbacks a lot. Plus as per my early quote she was written to succeed and all your examples prove it.

Comics readership and markets shrunk dramatically across the board so it's kind of hard to say.

The reason could be lost of interest, or loss of finances among many other factors right.

[VolcanikTiger86]

We also don't have numbers digitally. The other thing is that Mary Jane is still a prominent part of Spider-Man titles Post-OMD, and made a lot of appearances in that period and a constant tease was the idea of OMD being reversed, so the sales of Spider-Man won't indicate that MJ is unpopular or people have moved past OMD since a lot of readership are likely reading in the hope of an eventual payoff and reversal to the previous status-quo. Like Spider-Island was the event that was almost unanimously liked among Slott's earlier run, but that comic ends with an affirmation of Peter and MJ's bond and Mary Jane plays a huge role in the climax. And this was remarked on. As for how popular MJ still is, let's look at one indicator. The Spider-Man PS4 game that became all the rage and sold like hot cakes takes a lot of inspiration from Slott's run, including Big Time and Spider-Island, and yet it used Mary Jane rather than Carlie Cooper (who is the love interest in Big Time and Spider-Island).

Ok one the Mary Jane in the PS4 game is nothing like the comics version plus I could be wrong – searching yep their relationship wasn’t a big part of the game sorry what I mean to say was that From what I have seen the relationship wasn’t a big factor and Peter and MJ rekindled their relationship at the end of the game rather than the beginning. I think you are going to say she was supportive and she was in the game instead of Carlie or Gwen my counter Carlie was never appearing in the game, the PS4 was in 2018 the experiment of Carlie was dead however one part did come through and that was Yuri who also appeared in the game. Gwen could have appeared maybe but Mary Jane is the iconic and most developed of Peter’s love interests I would have been surprised even they hadn’t used her.

And then you have Renew Your Vows, an AU Series which notable in some of its issues, actually outsold the main ASM issue that month. It's almost impossible for an AU to outsell the main 616 story. The last time that happened before was Ultimate Spider-Man.

Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows lasted about 25 issues and ok maybe it beat the main title, impossible stuff happens, have a funny feeling that was around the clone conspiracy which impacted sales.

David Michelinie said he thought so at the time but he later came to enjoy writing the marriage and he's happy to have done so. Other writers at the time, PAD, and JMD, both welcomed it. Most of the Spider-Man editorial and writing team at the time welcomed the marriage. Tom Defalco opposed it initially but he also came around and as EIC who succeeded Shooter and as such had total authority to shut down the marriage before it became big, he let it continue for his 7 year regime.

Ok hold on the editors loved the marriage but some of the writers didn’t but gave it a chance and enjoyed doing it ok pretty sure the editors control what is printed and can say yes or no if they loved the marriage then a writer had a uphill battle and people have to work.

Gwen Stacy had more than 50 issues under Stan Lee's run to be made interesting and he tried everything to do so. I think people would agree that's enough chances given to a supporting character.

I don’t guess I’m not a person hmm what am I then.

Well, considering that Gwen Stacy supported a white supremacist in ASM #91-92, maybe the condemnation of her by some of the fans is in fact rooted in that free-spiritedness. Gwen Stacy is a dutiful daughter of a police captain, she's rich and blonde, her entire time with Peter revolves entirely around him with no goals of her own, she bullied Aunt May, and she flirted with white supremacy. Those are all stuff that happened in-page in the entire run of Lee-Romita.

I will need to reread some of this but then again maybe there was a reason for it, could have been a story there where Peter found out and what would he have thought and felt and was Gwen really supporting it or was she supporting a person that she knew with blinders on. Could have been good development if it had gone anyway and oblivious in a progressive way but the political climate was different in the 60’s and the rules were different as well. Plus what is the issue she bullied Aunt May because context is important, I fear the word bullied is used so easily

Have you actually read the Lee-Romita era Gwen?

Yes but I read a lot of books and I don’t have a photographic memory I do forget things

I have.

Important question for me is when.

So I can totally see why she was so unpopular. But has anyone here actually read those stories? I don't think people can logically complain about "we were denied Gwen" if they haven't read the Gwen they were denied. Spider-Gwen she ain't.

But we were denied Gwen, I don’t mean MJ_Gwen what I mean is Gwen as herself, people say that Stan tried everything but did he, what storylines did she have, what development, what did we know about her that we didn’t know before, I can think of the top of my head plenty of stories that you could tell but hindsight is twenty twenty I think Stan tried a experiment and it was too late. I think Gwen needed to be a character of her own and legend that he is Stan didn’t give us that so yes I am happy to say I was denied Gwen.

Conway wrote that romance well but he went off after ASM#149,

No buts he wrote it well and didn’t write Gwen well why he liked MJ didn’t like Gwen and that is a fact he has made well know.

[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4415100]Mary Jane was written out of the books multiple times but she's always come back stronger than ever.
We could debate this but I’m too tired

There was nothing inevitable about it.

Hmm you go on thinking that iconic love interest that mean anything to you.

She lasted long because she was able to constantly get new fans and renew her popularity multiple times.

I’m sure the word of mouth didn’t hurt her either.

[VolcanikTiger86]

As for Gwen, it is fair to say that Conway and even Romita before him ( see Bullett, Sam as Exhibit: A) were not big fans of 616 Gwen,

Thank you and who was the one who began to develop MJ – Conway.

but many writters had the opportunity to bring her back since 1973 ( especially after the popularity of Emma Stone), and elected not to do so.

The Emma Stone thing was a non starter that happened during BND, I heard rumors that Gwen was meant to come back with Harry but the editors didn’t want to change so much history or something I didn’t pay attention because I thought it was full of crap.

Even in 2019, they could have aged Ghost-Spider Gwen to Peter's Age, to hook them up and chose not to.

Peter will never date a heroine which Gost Spider is because he needs a civilian love interest because he is a everyman.

Why?

Something tells me I’m going to disagree with your answer but tell me anyway.

Marvel knows the Pete/Gwen romance ship has passed.

Possible doesn’t mean I have to like it though but then again how would you feel if I said the marriage has passed or that Peter/MJ has passed, please think about that.

As for Felicia, Spencer chose to let her know about the marriage. Why? Because she is leaving the book ( just like Cindy did ) Thank God Cindy is gone)). Who is left standing? MJ. Does it mean the marriage returns? Not necessarily, but for the first time since OMD there is hope.

Well Dan Slott said the politics at Marvel wouldn’t let the marriage return, the relationship sure but never the marriage you want to have false hope don’t let me stop you guess hope is hope probability’s be dammed I can respect that. Truthfully I think there was some story potential with Cindy.

No one gets Peter more than MJ and he knows it.

Knowing about Spider-man and 30+years helps

Peter dating other women makes no sense when he knows who his perfect match is.

Thank you, this highlights a problem when you tell me that she is his perfect match I say boooring
Why because perfect is a pipedream, it doesn’t exist, for me fictional characters don’t have soulmates they have OTP’s and for me the more options for OTPs the better, you will always have the most iconic but I don’t have to like it, I just have to respect it and live with it and that’s easy to do for me because I want good stories. So when you say MJ is his perfect match I say ok sounds boring to me and I look for story potential somewhere else.

This by the way in a period when the comics market and readership was several times higher than what it is now. In a period where 616 was the main deal as opposed to the plethora of AU you now have and so on. More eyeballs have read the married Spider-man than will ever read the Post-BND era. That's a fact.

You have lost me, I mean really how dare you, how dare you quote a fact that you can never prove. I mean this is a very good reason for people to hate pro marriage fans because it seems to be me that you are omega or alpha level seers because you can know stuff that hasn’t happened yet. Because you BELIEVE that the marriage is better for reasons, because you believe that MARY Jane is Peter’s soul mate she is and you can quote facts at me about things to come, I don’t think you thought what you said through.
Mic Dropped.