I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[Frontier]

Yeah I feel the exact same way, I thought he used her really well during Big Time and in RYV, its just clear he doesn't see her as being essential, and instead had a lot of different ideas he wanted to explore and put focus on.

I think it's reasonable to say that Slott's use of Mary Jane was very inconsistent.

Comparatively I think his handling of Felicia got progressively worse.

[WebLurker]

* giggles in parallax *

Awful, awful word choice on my part. My point still stands that I think the story was a mistake if they wanted readers to ever accept her as a heroic character again.

i sometimes get on better with people who have different tastes to mine. seeking out people who reflect my opinions back at me... just ain’t that appealing

it’s more about the person and how they conduct themselves than whether or not they think mj was a hot reward for peter’s goodness

“with great responsibility comes a hot wifey!”- what uncle ben really said

Yeah, can see that. I get along best with people who're civil and like discussing whatever viewpoints they hold. I guess I just feel like an outlier everywhere when it comes to this subject.

(Frankly, I liked married Spider-Man better mostly because I think that was a more interesting dynamic and I find the whole dating and misunderstanding drama thing eyeball-rolling in general. So help me, I also prefer the premise of him being a dad a more interesting future then him being impersonated by his own enemy or becoming Iron Man 2.0, and all that. I guess since handling responsibility has always been the central theme, I guess him having a family, whether it be just a wife or wife and kid(s) feeds into that really well and clicks for me.)

[boots]

Awful, awful word choice on my part. My point still stands that I think the story was a mistake if they wanted readers to ever accept her as a heroic character again.




Yeah, can see that. I get along best with people who're civil and like discussing whatever viewpoints they hold. I guess I just feel like an outlier everywhere when it comes to this subject.

(Frankly, I liked married Spider-Man better mostly because I think that was a more interesting dynamic and I find the whole dating and misunderstanding drama thing eyeball-rolling in general. So help me, I also prefer the premise of him being a dad a more interesting future then him being impersonated by his own enemy or becoming Iron Man 2.0, and all that. I guess since handling responsibility has always been the central theme, I guess him having a family, whether it be just a wife or wife and kid(s) feeds into that really well and clicks for me.)

yeah not disagreeing, but accountability isn’t a superhero comic strongsuit at times

civil is the entry point, it’s not something to be applauded

but what do you feel you’re an outlier regarding?

[Zeitgeist]

mockingbirb sounds very cute, one of those chonky birbs in bobbi's costume

She should join the animal avengers with Frog Thor and Pizza Dog

[Zeitgeist]

This post is not really making a good argument.

Sorry.

(If I can give some constructive criticism. The problem with this post is you don't really answer my "the needs of Peter Parker vs. the needs of Spider-Man".

Simply, if your argument is "this doesn't work because it's only resulted in 'failure' the one or two times it's happened before and therefore can never work again", then that's not a great argument in itself, because it doesn't hinge on anything but predicated choices of an author, not some grand truth. But thanks.

You talk about how writers could make Spidey/Superheroine work if they really tried. Which seems pretty dismissive of what writers do. Do you think Slott went into Spidey/Mockingbird thinking he'd put no effort into those issues?)

It has absolutely nothing to do with not putting in effort. Slott went into Spidey/Mockingbird to make it exactly what it was: a short term romance which ultimately wouldn't pan out, because it was close to the end of his overall run on the book and everyone knows that when you reach the end-point of a run, you put as many toys as you can back in the basket for the next steward. I'll reiterate - if something doesn't "succeed" in comic books, be it a superhero's venture or romance, it's because it's planned that way - a good 6 months in advance at the least, at that.

[Kevinroc]

Simply, if your argument is "this doesn't work because it's only resulted in 'failure' the one or two times it's happened before and therefore can never work again", then that's not a great argument in itself, because it doesn't hinge on anything but predicated choices of an author, not some grand truth. But thanks.

I think you know that isn't my argument.

The argument is what it always has been. It destroys the core of the book, the needs of Peter Parker vs. the needs of Spider-Man.

You can explore such a relationship for a little bit, but if you're seriously looking for a serious long term romantic relationship between Spider-Man x Superheroine, you're going to be disappointed.

It has absolutely nothing to do with not putting in effort. Slott went into Spidey/Mockingbird to make it exactly what it was: a short term romance which ultimately wouldn't pan out, because it was close to the end of his overall run on the book and everyone knows that when you reach the end-point of a run, you put as many toys as you can back in the basket for the next steward. I'll reiterate - if something doesn't "succeed" in comic books, be it a superhero's venture or romance, it's because it's planned that way - a good 6 months in advance at the least, at that.

Spider-Man X Mockingbird was like a truncated version of Spider-Man X Kitty Pryde over in Ultimate. The most you could hope for such a pairing is something in some kind of AU, where you don't have to worry about the needs of serialized fiction.

This also has nothing to do with MJ. (Since that's the elephant in the room in any kind of conversation about Spidey's love life, and some people think if she were gone, they'd get the Spidey ship of their dreams. Yeah, no. I think the Brain Trust/Slott era proved that wasn't the case at all.)

[Zeitgeist]

I think you know that isn't my argument.

The argument is what it always has been. It destroys the core of the book, the needs of Peter Parker vs. the needs of Spider-Man.

And I addressed this. You presented your perceived problem and presented it as if there were only one solution. That's not a very compelling argument. I'll say it again, it's funny how fans will argue that it's up to the writers to make something like a married couple work from now until infinity, but throw up their hands and say "oh there's no way this can happen" in any other composition. For all your talk about how dating a superheroine affects the "core of the book", I never thought Peter Parker, Spectacular Spider-Man was any less of a Spider-Man book for the 4 years or so between '83 and '87 where Spidey was dating Felicia herself. Now, imagine if it was actually designed to continue twice as long and not self-destruct. I'm sure it'd still very much be a Spider-Man book, no?

Spider-Man X Mockingbird was like a truncated version of Spider-Man X Kitty Pryde over in Ultimate. The most you could hope for such a pairing is something in some kind of AU, where you don't have to worry about the needs of serialized fiction.

This just plays into the exact point I made above and in my prior post. You're attempting to draw a causality where there just isn't a basis other than the writers making it so.
Also, why would it have to happen in an AU? All things go through cycles in said serialised fiction, we've both stated and agreed on this.

This also has nothing to do with MJ. (Since that's the elephant in the room in any kind of conversation about Spidey's love life, and some people think if she were gone, they'd get the Spidey ship of their dreams. Yeah, no. I think the Brain Trust/Slott era proved that wasn't the case at all.)

This thread actually has nothing to do with MJ, not that anyone would ever know of course
The only thing the Brain Trust/Slott era proved is that besides Carlie, they didn't try. Was Carlie the ship of anyone's dreams?

[Snoop Dogg]

Does Mary Jane respect wood?

[Zeitgeist]

No sir, she hates a good plank

[Kevinroc]

And I addressed this. You presented your perceived problem and presented it as if there were only one solution. That's not a very compelling argument. I'll say it again, it's funny how fans will argue that it's up to the writers to make something like a married couple work from now until infinity, but throw up their hands and say "oh there's no way this can happen" in any other composition. For all your talk about how dating a superheroine affects the "core of the book", I never thought Peter Parker, Spectacular Spider-Man was any less of a Spider-Man book for the 4 years or so between '83 and '87 where Spidey was dating Felicia herself. Now, imagine if it was actually designed to continue twice as long and not self-destruct. I'm sure it'd still very much be a Spider-Man book, no?

And the year+ Ultimate Spider-Man was with Kitty Pryde was fine too.

I never said there was any set limit of time for how long such a relationship would last. If you think that the four years Peter/Felicia were a thing prove the concept can last the test of time, I wonder what you'd say about the marriage that lasted twenty.

This just plays into the exact point I made above and in my prior post. You're attempting to draw a causality where there just isn't a basis other than the writers making it so.
Also, why would it have to happen in an AU? All things go through cycles in said serialised fiction, we've both stated and agreed on this.

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that no relationship in Spidey is going to go the distance, lol.

This thread actually has nothing to do with MJ, not that anyone would ever know of course
The only thing the Brain Trust/Slott era proved is that besides Carlie, they didn't try. Was Carlie the ship of anyone's dreams?

The true ship of that era was Peter/Misery. It's definitely the one ship that keeps coming back, over and over and over.

(This thread is all about MJ. She's even in the thread title and referred to as "Peter's main squeeze".)

[Miles To Go]

I mean, I think it's pretty clear that no relationship in Spidey is going to go the distance, lol.

Depends on Life Story, if his marriage to MJ there lasts well into his golden years, that will be proven untrue.

But then, I think the last decade has already proven it untrue anyway.

The fact the marriage lasted 31 years in total across a string of mediums, with several children as it's legacy, means that the definitive relationship for Peter will always be with MJ, that it has already went the distance several times, just because it's starting the sprint all over again in a continuity that is arguably only a decade old doesn't change that.

[WebLurker]

yeah not disagreeing, but accountability isn’t a superhero comic strongsuit at times

civil is the entry point, it’s not something to be applauded

Fair enough.

but what do you feel you’re an outlier regarding?

Well, I'm very much against OMD and will only read material set before it or stuff based on/inspired by those eras. However, as I noted before, I don't seem to have the militarism, for lack of a better word, that others of the position seem to have on the subject; it seems like, at least, the more vocal anti-OMD people are trying to campaign to get it undone and/or firmly believe that Marvel sticking to the retcon is actively hurting the brand. While I don't think it was a good decision and am pretty darn sure the boat would've righted itself without it, I don't really see the brand suffering financially and am more of the view that I don't really care what the flagship series does as long as I can find stuff that appeals to me.

I also don't seem to loathe the people involved as much as others do (will never be a fan of them or agree, but I just see them as others to have different opinions then I do who happen to have or have had more control of things then I ever will). It's all been an evolutionary process (there was a time when I could've been pretty nasty to Joe Quesada and Dan Slott if I'd had a mike) and I'm not saying that there's no one like me. It's just that when the OMD thing comes up, I find that I tend to be the devil's advocate for both the for and against parties.

[Kevinroc]

One of the biggest problems with Peter X Superheroine is also that, unless the character falls totally under the Spider editorial office, the Spider-Man writer wouldn't have complete control of the relationship. A shift in another book, for whatever reason, can end that relationship right then and there.

(As is what happened with Green Lantern Kyle Rayner and former Wonder Girl Donna Troy over at DC.)

[Huntsman Spider]

* giggles in parallax *



i sometimes get on better with people who have different tastes to mine. seeking out people who reflect my opinions back at me... just ain’t that appealing

it’s more about the person and how they conduct themselves than whether or not they think mj was a hot reward for peter’s goodness

“with great responsibility comes a hot wifey!”- what uncle ben really said

At least with Parallax/Hal, DC/Geoff Johns had the decency to explain/retcon it as a form of demonic possession, thus taking away a lot of Hal's culpability for Parallax's actions. Now we just need Spencer to say that Felicia also fell under some kind of malign external influence that took away a lot of her own culpability because she was very clearly not in her right mind, either.

And the year+ Ultimate Spider-Man was with Kitty Pryde was fine too.

I never said there was any set limit of time for how long such a relationship would last. If you think that the four years Peter/Felicia were a thing prove the concept can last the test of time, I wonder what you'd say about the marriage that lasted twenty.



I mean, I think it's pretty clear that no relationship in Spidey is going to go the distance, lol.



The true ship of that era was Peter/Misery. It's definitely the one ship that keeps coming back, over and over and over.

(This thread is all about MJ. She's even in the thread title and referred to as "Peter's main squeeze".)

"Misery, misery, misery. That's what you've chosen."

[Alan2099]

Does Mary Jane respect wood?

No. Infact, she goes to the park at least once a week just to flip off the trees.

One of the biggest problems with Peter X Superheroine is also that, unless the character falls totally under the Spider editorial office, the Spider-Man writer wouldn't have complete control of the relationship. A shift in another book, for whatever reason, can end that relationship right then and there.

(As is what happened with Green Lantern Kyle Rayner and former Wonder Girl Donna Troy over at DC.)

True. Even picking a character that hasn't been used in ages is risky.