I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[Zeitgeist]

The point is you seem to think that having pagetime is some kind of arbitrary accident and not a condition of the character's popularity and qualities that lend to their use in multiple stories.

Never said it was an accident at all. What I am saying though that any well formed character given as much page time could find the same levels of popularity.

The two Spider-Man supporting characters with the most appearances across all Marvel comics in 616 is J. Jonah Jameson and Mary Jane Watson both over 1200 each with MJ maybe overtaking Flat-Top and at different times being ahead and behind.

Aunt May hasn't even reached 1000 and is a distant third.

You're ignoring that Aunt May chronologically debuted before them both and is more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos than either. Peter will have different bosses and different girlfriends but he will always have one sole guardian (ignoring AUs, of course).
Which is all very much besides the point of the thread, I may add.
Can't even make a joke without people looking to (unsuccessfully) make a "gotcha".

[Zeitgeist]

Getting real Game of Thrones around here.

Man you seen Marissa Tomei

[Kevinroc]

Man you seen Marissa Tomei

I know what Marissa Tomei looks like.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

What I am saying though that any well formed character given as much page time could find the same levels of popularity.

Why didn't it happen with Gwen Stacy then? I mean at the time of her death, Gwen was more prominent then MJ in the Spider-Man titles with more appearances and so on. And yet Mary Jane appeared in the 1967 Spider-Man cartoon in its third season while Gwen was still alive and the latter was a no-show. I guess that could be that Gwen wasn't a well-formed character whatever that means.

You're ignoring that Aunt May chronologically debuted before them both and is more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos than either.

By that logic, Flash Thompson is more important than May and Ben, chronologically he made the earliest appearance in Spider-Man since he was there in panel 1 in AF#15. As by the way does Liz Allan (though she is named later on while Flash is named right at the start). May and Ben appear several panels later. J. Jonah Jameson appeared in ASM#1, Spider-Man's first solo comic. And Mary Jane Watson was first mentioned in ASM#15 as the girl that Aunt May herself believed would be the one that Peter should someday marry. Basically MJ's first mention in the comics in the 15th issue is May saying that "MJ is endgame." MJ's first appearance (shadowed and all) is in ASM#25 which by the way is also the first issue on which Steve Ditko had plotting credit. So she was definitely someone with a big role and future right from the start of the comics.

Which is all very much besides the point of the thread, I may add.

Says the guy who brought it up and made an issue out of it. How's that for gotcha?

[Alan2099]

And yet Mary Jane appeared in the 1967 Spider-Man cartoon in its third season while Gwen was still alive and the latter was a no-show.

Interesting example as the "Mary Jane" from that cartoon is clearly an amalgamation between the two. She has MJ's hair color and fashion sense, while her hair style looks more Gwen and she's Captain Stacy's neice.

That seems to happen a lot when adapting Spider-man. MJ tends to take on a lot of Gwen's characteristics and iconic scenes. One could even argue that in the Ultimate Universe they basically just took the two of them and switched their personalities around.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Interesting example as the "Mary Jane" from that cartoon is clearly an amalgamation between the two. She has MJ's hair color and fashion sense, while her hair style looks more Gwen and she's Captain Stacy's neice.

She's still Mary Jane being that she works as a dancer in one of Kingpin's fronts. That comes directly from the comic. Her being Stacy's niece is about the only connection she has with Gwen.

MJ tends to take on a lot of Gwen's characteristics and iconic scenes.

When did MJ hate Spider-Man but love Peter Parker and blame Spider-Man for her father's death? When did MJ support a white supremacist as Gwen did in ASM#91-92? When did Gwen act as a bully to Peter on his first arrival to college? Gwen's biggest central characteristic is that she hated Spider-Man. That has never once been MJ's traits in any adaptation.

People keep saying this or variations of it, but there's not much shred of evidence in support of it, and often in the face of evidence against it. People keep saying for instance that Raimi wanted Gwen Stacy in the first movies and only settled for MJ because the studio wanted it, when in fact here's the man himself,

"Did the story get changed a few times?
Sam Raimi: Absolutely. David Koepp who had wrote the first script had a piece with the two villains being Elektro and the Sandman, I think they were leftovers from James Cameron’s treatment – which I like to call a ‘scriptment’. It was an 80-page treatment with these characters, but the thing is these characters weren’t my favorite. My favorite was actually the death of Gwen Stacey. Thing is, I didn’t particularly like the Gwen Stacey character, I liked the element of it, but liked Mary Jane Watson and The Green Goblin."
http://www.bookofthedead.ws/hosted/m...0MovieHole.htm

One could even argue that in the Ultimate Universe they basically just took the two of them and switched their personalities around.

How? I mean seriously. Ultimate MJ becomes Peter's confidant very early on, with their teenage relationship more or less becoming a mirror of their marriage but transposed into teenage setting and context. Liz Allan even mocks their closeness, "You two are so married" and so on. MJ comes from a broken home with an abusive father which is also part of her background in the comics. MJ in Ultimate Spider-Man is essentially the character that Conway and Defalco and others developed from the Lee-Romita days.

Whereas Ultimate Gwen is a goth with punk affects, and when her father dies, she hates Spider-Man and blames him for his death. The only original direction the story goes into is that she gets over it, moves in with Aunt May (ironic considering that 616 Gwen didn't get on well with Aunt May at all) and becomes Peter's sister (until that weird bit they started dating Post-Ultimatum which felt as many characters point out as incest-y).

[NC_Yankee]

I never liked how they handled that. The not-MJ MJ thing. They should have said Zendaya was cast as Mary Jane, and anyone who had a problem with it was wrong.

Changing the skin color of a character is interesting. Sometimes it can improve a story ( Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury for instance), sometimes it makes no difference ( both Edward Woodward ( the original Robert McCall ( The Equalizer)) and Denzel Washington are both good in the role), and sometimes it ruins a character ( Cedric The Entertainer is no Jackie Gleason when it comes to Ralph Kramden in The Honeymooners). The biggest problem with the skin color change was the producers were not being honest with the audience about the decision to make a change from a redheaded white teenager to a black teenager. If you are going to do it, then be honest about it.

[WebLurker]

Not dealing with it hurts the book. IMHO.

I would rather the deal be exposed and Peter and MJ break up because of it, then Pete and MJ stay together without that knowledge. It’s cheating the consequences. And Peter is supposed to be about responsibility.

Not to mention OMD was an absolutely terrible storyline poorly written......

Maybe. I don't think much of anyone likes the story or thinks it's good, more of if the destination was worth it. I know what I'd like, but I'm not the target audience and I've really come to dislike complaining about stuff you don't read, so I kinda feel that, while I can say that I'm not interested in that kind of Spider-Man since I don't like the idea of the premise, it's not for me to say what the series should or should not do next.

In a multi billion dollar film universe, the latest installment of which is smashing the box office which far exceeds the reach of any singular video game, Aunt May is vibrant, young and alive, and MJ is a half black teenager named Michelle.

There was also Into the Spider-Verse. IMHO, the message I take from that is that there's room for both. (In fact, I personally want both, not just one, like has kinda happened over time.)

[Kevinroc]

Changing the skin color of a character is interesting. Sometimes it can improve a story ( Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury for instance), sometimes it makes no difference ( both Edward Woodward ( the original Robert McCall ( The Equalizer)) and Denzel Washington are both good in the role), and sometimes it ruins a character ( Cedric The Entertainer is no Jackie Gleason when it comes to Ralph Kramden in The Honeymooners). The biggest problem with the skin color change was the producers were not being honest with the audience about the decision to make a change from a redheaded white teenager to a black teenager. If you are going to do it, then be honest about it.

It reminded me of "Robin" in Nolan's Dark Knight Rises.

[boots]

Changing the skin color of a character is interesting. Sometimes it can improve a story ( Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury for instance), sometimes it makes no difference ( both Edward Woodward ( the original Robert McCall ( The Equalizer)) and Denzel Washington are both good in the role), and sometimes it ruins a character ( Cedric The Entertainer is no Jackie Gleason when it comes to Ralph Kramden in The Honeymooners). The biggest problem with the skin color change was the producers were not being honest with the audience about the decision to make a change from a redheaded white teenager to a black teenager. If you are going to do it, then be honest about it.

there’s a few more race-bends in the pipeline for the MCU. i hope open casting will just become the norm in the near future and not such a controversial topic.

[NC_Yankee]

there’s a few more race-bends in the pipeline for the MCU. i hope open casting will just become the norm in the near future and not such a controversial topic.

I believe in merit. Example: Murtaugh in Lethal Weapon was supposed to be white, and killed off, but Danny Glover auditioned and was perfect in the role. But I do not want to see history change for the sake of change. Ex: James Bond as a woman

[boots]

I believe in merit. Example: Murtaugh in Lethal Weapon was supposed to be white, and killed off, but Danny Glover auditioned and was perfect in the role. But I do not want to see history change for the sake of change. Ex: James Bond as a woman

i don’t think anyone involved in the casting process doesn’t believe in merit (casting couch and nepotism aside)

open-casting is about opening the door which was previously closed off to non-white actors and allowing them to prove that merit. they still need to deliver in order to book the job.

the move towards this isn't arbitrary or change for its own sake, it's about opportunity and diversity on screen.

[Mister Mets]

Slott was writing Doctor Who and Iron Man using ASM as a canvas.

According to Slott, the Doctor is only his fourth favorite fictional character (Spider-Man is #1.)

https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1128457666236383232

[Lee]

Why didn't it happen with Gwen Stacy then? I mean at the time of her death, Gwen was more prominent then MJ in the Spider-Man titles with more appearances and so on. And yet Mary Jane appeared in the 1967 Spider-Man cartoon in its third season while Gwen was still alive and the latter was a no-show. I guess that could be that Gwen wasn't a well-formed character whatever that means.

This is really grasping at straws. As if they were making a statement about either character.

[NC_Yankee]

i don’t think anyone involved in the casting process doesn’t believe in merit (casting couch and nepotism aside)

open-casting is about opening the door which was previously closed off to non-white actors and allowing them to prove that merit. they still need to deliver in order to book the job.

the move towards this isn't arbitrary or change for its own sake, it's about opportunity and diversity on screen.

The key to any movie or TV show is do I think of the character or the person playing the character.Taking this to Spider-Man, I actually preferred Zendaya as MJ when compared to Kirsten Dunst. Why? Because her MJ had more bite, and a well written MJ is not sweet and innocent. like Dunst portrayed her, she is tough and is a fighter. On the other side of this, in Batman and Robin I see George Clooney ( who I do not like), not Bruce Wayne/Batman and thus, consider him the worst Batman ( Val Kilmer and Ben Afflick included).