I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[Frontier]

Michelle to me reminds me most of Spectacular's MJ, the "cool girl" mostly by herself but still joins in to take part in the fun, only with a 2010s teenage filter over it as opposed to the 2000s interpretation of 60s portrayal.

I don't see Spec MJ at all. She was flirty, the life of the party, a bit of a glamour girl, not interested in "serious" relationships, but still had a good heart and cared about people. Plus, the acting thing.

Were we supposed to think of Michelle as the "cool girl?" Maybe in a "rebellious" "counter-culture" way, but I felt that was more supposed to be Liz in-universe.

[Lee]

Were we supposed to think of Michelle as the "cool girl?"

Certainly not. At the start of the film she outright admits that she doesn't have any friends. She opens up and makes friends through the course of the movie, but she's never depicted as one of the cool/popular kids.

The Lee/Romita Mary Jane was a popular, fashionable extrovert who adored the spotlight.

[Frontier]

The Lee/Romita Mary Jane was a popular, fashionable extrovert who adored the spotlight.

Which, honestly, Zendaya could probably play with her eyes closed but I guess they needed to "subvert expectations" with the twist.

[Mister Mets]

Essentially, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their MJ to be seen as their own character that is different from the comics, but they still use the "MJ" name, which means something within the context of Spider-Man that they expect the audience to know.

Honestly, they should have just said they had cast Zendaya as Mary Jane, and ignored anyone who had a problem with that. Mary Jane looks like she does in the comics because John Romita based her off of Ann-Margret from the film Bye Bye Birdie. Society doesn't just think that is what beauty means in the 2010s. And they could have made a powerful statement about that.

Instead they wanted to have their cake (that she's not Mary Jane, traditionally portrayed as a white girl with red hair) and eat it too (but she is "MJ"). It's dumb.

I think society would still think Ann Margaret's hot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvqpmpWGlLk

But I could see why Sony didn't want to limit themselves to actresses with that particular look.

[Lee]

I think Michelle Jones is a great character, I prefer her to Mary Jane. I don't think it was a good idea to connect the two characters with the initials/nickname, since they have nothing else in common. Same deal with Ned Leeds.

[Inversed]

I don't see Spec MJ at all. She was flirty, the life of the party, a bit of a glamour girl, not interested in "serious" relationships, but still had a good heart and cared about people. Plus, the acting thing.

Were we supposed to think of Michelle as the "cool girl?" Maybe in a "rebellious" "counter-culture" way, but I felt that was more supposed to be Liz in-universe.

She's "cool" in the sense of her personality, being all laid back, say it like it is, rebellious/loner type, rather than being "cool/popular". Liz I wouldn't say is the "cool girl", but she definitely takes the role as the "popular girl", which in the modern high school tropes the film is adopting, it fits that way.

[boots]

Certainly not. At the start of the film she outright admits that she doesn't have any friends. She opens up and makes friends through the course of the movie, but she's never depicted as one of the cool/popular kids.

The Lee/Romita Mary Jane was a popular, fashionable extrovert who adored the spotlight.

“cool” and “popular” not necessarily the same

[Frontier]

I think Michelle Jones is a great character, I prefer her to Mary Jane. I don't think it was a good idea to connect the two characters with the initials/nickname, since they have nothing else in common. Same deal with Ned Leeds.

Michelle just seems like moodier Deb Whitman to me.

Which, nothing wrong with that, just don't try and make her out to be Mary Jane or fulfill Mary Jane's role like the character doesn't matter (and I don't count using a shared initials nickname as "mattering.").

She's "cool" in the sense of her personality, being all laid back, say it like it is, rebellious/loner type, rather than being "cool/popular". Liz I wouldn't say is the "cool girl", but she definitely takes the role as the "popular girl", which in the modern high school tropes the film is adopting, it fits that way.

Well, by that definition of "cool" I think those two elements are the only things she shares with Spec!MJ, but they are expressed very differently.

[Lee]

“cool” and “popular” not necessarily the same

She's a character the audience was supposed to find cool, but within the context of the fiction she was a weird girl, with no friends, who ate lunch alone and struggled to connect with people.

She's "cool" in the sense of her personality, being all laid back, say it like it is

Nah, Michelle was far too self-aware of her insecurities to be laid back about anything, too caught up in projecting a veneer of ironic detachment to "say it like it is".

[Frontier]

She's a character the audience was supposed to find cool, but within the context of the fiction she was a weird girl, with no friends, who ate lunch alone and struggled to connect with people.

And seemed oddly focused on Peter Parker, to the point of just randomly flipping him off .

[boots]

She's a character the audience was supposed to find cool, but within the context of the fiction she was a weird girl, with no friends, who ate lunch alone and struggled to connect with people.



Nah, Michelle was far too self-aware of her insecurities to be laid back about anything, too caught up in projecting a veneer of ironic detachment to "say it like it is".

i suppose it all comes down to what you’re looking for in an adaptation

[Revolutionary_Jack]

You've literally only taken half of what I said and ran with it, which is funny because you actually quoted my full reply, which contained the integral "and is more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos than either". Her early appearance is part of her importance, it doesn't wholly hinge on it.

You specifically said, "You're ignoring that Aunt May chronologically debuted before them both and is more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos than either. " The second clause "more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos" comes before "Aunt May chronologically debuted before them" with the connective word "and" between them. That is stating that May coming before both of them chronologically makes her more integral than Jameson and MJ regardless of appearances.

But anyway, if the early appearance isn't the whole thing, then that means one can argue that Jameson and MJ also count as integral characters since both of them do have prominent places in Spider-Man's founding era and have made more appearances in 616 since then. I would never say MJ is more integral than Aunt May or Jameson, but at the same time I won't accept anyone saying May is more integral than them either.

She's a character the audience was supposed to find cool, but within the context of the fiction she was a weird girl, with no friends, who ate lunch alone and struggled to connect with people.

That's how MJ described her high school phase in Defalco's origin.

And in any case, being an aloof loner who sits by the side has been part of what makes teenagers cool since Rebel Without A Cause (the first teen movie).

[WebLurker]

Word search on the script here
shows she did it once in a casual context. So it's not a regular thing with her in those films.

Yeah, it was once once per movie, and never the jackpot version.

Yeah, I mean that felt like mythology over character-in-the-moment-and-place, she said it for the first time in USM#13.

Yeah, it worked better in the Death of Spider-Man Prelude, where it was just the nickname and a variation of the "I like calling you that" explanation.

I don't think it fit her characterization was well, but it still came off as a playful nickname that worked in my opinion.

Yeah, I think the "tiger" part worked on that level, but the quoting the whole jackpot line didn't because of the very different contexts and the relationship between the characters at this point. I mean, in the original scene, they first meet on a blind date and MJ is essentially saying that he's lucky he's going out with her in the cheekiest way possible. In the case of Ultimate, the couple already knew each other (later issues would state they'd been close friends all their lives) and it was shown that MJ was more then a little shy about the fact that she was seeing Peter as more then a friend. While she might've had something of a confidence boost discovering that her feelings were reciprocated, their relationship transition was always a bit awkward, for lack of a better word. While the tiger nickname could've still been used (heck, I think its about the only pet name the couple had in the original comics that didn't really age), I think the rest of it should've been revised to better fit the scene. Mileage may vary.

And seemed oddly focused on Peter Parker, to the point of just randomly flipping him off .

If the idea was to have the characters dating somewhere in the series, dollars to donuts that was to set it up.

[Zeitgeist]

You specifically said, "You're ignoring that Aunt May chronologically debuted before them both and is more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos than either. " The second clause "more integral to the formation of the Spider-Man mythos" comes before "Aunt May chronologically debuted before them" with the connective word "and" between them. That is stating that May coming before both of them chronologically makes her more integral than Jameson and MJ regardless of appearances.

Trying to conjure a smoking gun out of a lack of an Oxford comma feels a lot like grasping at semantics. For future reference, if I meant exactly that, I would have followed with "therefore", ie "and therefore is".

But anyway, if the early appearance isn't the whole thing, then that means one can argue that Jameson and MJ also count as integral characters since both of them do have prominent places in Spider-Man's founding era and have made more appearances in 616 since then. I would never say MJ is more integral than Aunt May or Jameson, but at the same time I won't accept anyone saying May is more integral than them either.

Never said they weren't integral - in fact I never brought up Jameson or MJ, as that was all you. You're also the one who made the argument that higher page count was solely equivalent to grander importance in reply to an offhand joke about Aunt May, and thus I brought up the importance of her early debut and her overall importance that I feel transcends things like wikia article statistics.
I can't tell whether you're in essence arguing with yourself or trying to force an argument out of where there was none, but there's better ways to spend a Friday night, m'man.

[Frontier]

Yeah, I think the "tiger" part worked on that level, but the quoting the whole jackpot line didn't because of the very different contexts and the relationship between the characters at this point. I mean, in the original scene, they first meet on a blind date and MJ is essentially saying that he's lucky he's going out with her in the cheekiest way possible. In the case of Ultimate, the couple already knew each other (later issues would state they'd been close friends all their lives) and it was shown that MJ was more then a little shy about the fact that she was seeing Peter as more then a friend. While she might've had something of a confidence boost discovering that her feelings were reciprocated, their relationship transition was always a bit awkward, for lack of a better word. While the tiger nickname could've still been used (heck, I think its about the only pet name the couple had in the original comics that didn't really age), I think the rest of it should've been revised to better fit the scene. Mileage may vary.

I only remember it coming up when they were pretty committed to each other and deep in their relationship, so maybe that confidence and affection is what lead to Mary Jane starting to use it.

If the idea was to have the characters dating somewhere in the series, dollars to donuts that was to set it up.

At least the focused on Peter part, yeah, if only to indicate she has an interest in him.