I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[Lee]

That's how MJ described her high school phase in Defalco's origin.

Nah. That story depicted Mary Jane as an extrovert. There's not a hint of Michelle Jones in her.

And in any case, being an aloof loner who sits by the side has been part of what makes teenagers cool since Rebel Without A Cause (the first teen movie).

Cool is a social status. Nobody in the film thought Michelle was Fonzie.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Cool is a social status. Nobody in the film thought Michelle was Fonzie.

Nobody in Rebel Without A Cause thinks James Dean is cool at the start, but he is framed as cool to the audience. Michelle Jones certainly comes off as cool to the audience, or at least some people in the audience. I mean you are meant to laugh with her when she mocks the detention teacher with that drawing and so on. Remember that in Homecoming, the high school mechanics have totally changed from the familiar Spider-Man trappings of jocks and nerds, and with that even the concept of "cool" and so on isn't there. The high school is a Magnet school for academically gifted types you know.

[Inversed]

Nobody in Rebel Without A Cause thinks James Dean is cool at the start, but he is framed as cool to the audience. Michelle Jones certainly comes off as cool to the audience, or at least some people in the audience. I mean you are meant to laugh with her when she mocks the detention teacher with that drawing and so on. Remember that in Homecoming, the high school mechanics have totally changed from the familiar Spider-Man trappings of jocks and nerds, and with that even the concept of "cool" and so on isn't there. The high school is a Magnet school for academically gifted types you know.

And that's ultimately the main thing, the film is going for 2010s high school and teenager structure, which has changed drastically from the 60s, to even the early 2000s. As someone who is fairly younger and relatively close to the ages of the characters in the film, I KNOW these people. I know a Ned, a Flash, a Liz, an MJ, etc., the film captures the personalities really well and that's why I think they turned out to be really enjoyable characters to me.

"Why are you two losers at this party" "But you're here." "Am I?" Little moments like that are why I love Michelle. Also her just casually hanging in detention for no reason and no one really notices.

[Snoop Dogg]

You're my new favourite

[Frontier]

And that's ultimately the main thing, the film is going for 2010s high school and teenager structure, which has changed drastically from the 60s, to even the early 2000s. As someone who is fairly younger and relatively close to the ages of the characters in the film, I KNOW these people. I know a Ned, a Flash, a Liz, an MJ, etc., the film captures the personalities really well and that's why I think they turned out to be really enjoyable characters to me.

"Why are you two losers at this party" "But you're here." "Am I?" Little moments like that are why I love Michelle. Also her just casually hanging in detention for no reason and no one really notices.

We've had several different takes on Peter's supporting cast in a modern context. Ultimate, Spec, MCU, and I guess some of the other cartoons (but none did as much with them as Spec did).

Spec's versions came off, to me, as the most layered and meatier compared to their MCU counterparts, but that's just me. Obviously I also felt their Mary Jane felt more like Mary Jane then Michelle did/does.

[Lee]

Nobody in Rebel Without A Cause thinks James Dean is cool at the start, but he is framed as cool to the audience. Michelle Jones certainly comes off as cool to the audience, or at least some people in the audience.

Yes. That's exactly what I said a few posts ago. Michelle Jones is a character who the audience is supposed to find cool, but who isn't cool or popular within the fiction.

Mary Jane Watson was always cool and popular within the fiction.

They're completely different characters, just like movie Ned Leeds and comic Ned Leeds.

We've had several different takes on Peter's supporting cast in a modern context. Ultimate, Spec, MCU, and I guess some of the other cartoons (but none did as much with them as Spec did).

Spec's versions came off, to me, as the most layered and meatier compared to their MCU counterparts, but that's just me. Obviously I also felt their Mary Jane felt more like Mary Jane then Michelle did/does.

Spectacular Spider-Man's Mary Jane was probably the most faithful adaptation of the character there's ever been.

[Frontier]

Spectacular Spider-Man's Mary Jane was probably the most faithful adaptation of the character there's ever been.

Well, the Ultimate cartoon and PS4 game were more faitfhul to Ultimate MJ, but I'm not big into "Lois Jane."

[Lee]

Well, the Ultimate cartoon and PS4 game were more faitfhul to Ultimate MJ, but I'm not big into "Lois Jane."

Sounds like they're faithful adaptations of an not-so-faithful adaptation then.

[Frontier]

Sounds like they're faithful adaptations of an not-so-faithful adaptation then.

Or just leaning into a certain interpretation .

[boots]

We've had several different takes on Peter's supporting cast in a modern context. Ultimate, Spec, MCU, and I guess some of the other cartoons (but none did as much with them as Spec did).

Spec's versions came off, to me, as the most layered and meatier compared to their MCU counterparts, but that's just me. Obviously I also felt their Mary Jane felt more like Mary Jane then Michelle did/does.

that may be, but mcu felt the most contemporary, the most like "if spidey were created today, what would his cast be like?". this supporting cast feel the most millennial

[WebLurker]

I only remember it coming up when they were pretty committed to each other and deep in their relationship, so maybe that confidence and affection is what lead to Mary Jane starting to use it.

In 616 or Ultimate? In Ultimate, I only recall the two times (the jackpot homage line when Peter tells her he's Spider-Man and they first work out that they're falling for each other and later in the Death of Spider-Man Prelude story, which was very much after they'd gone past the point of no return).

At least the focused on Peter part, yeah, if only to indicate she has an interest in him.

Oh, yeah. I mean the line of her insisting that she's just observant, not obsessed with him when she lets slip that she has a pretty good idea of his schedule alone is extremely revealing. Wonder where they're going to go with it. The original movie didn't really show why they'd want to be together, if that makes any sense.

[Frontier]

that may be, but mcu felt the most contemporary, the most like "if spidey were created today, what would his cast be like?". this supporting cast feel the most millennial

I guess it depends how you look at it.

Spec felt more like Spider-Man's supporting cast of today since they were depicted in-character and as themselves but in a modern context, while in the MCU there might be some similar surface traits but they often feel like very different characters. Almost like you took Peter and his supporting cast, put them in a blender with Miles Morales, and then made MCU Spider-Man.

In 616 or Ultimate? In Ultimate, I only recall the two times (the jackpot homage line when Peter tells her he's Spider-Man and they first work out that they're falling for each other and later in the Death of Spider-Man Prelude story, which was very much after they'd gone past the point of no return).

I think I remember her calling him that during the Wolverine brainswap arc.

Oh, yeah. I mean the line of her insisting that she's just observant, not obsessed with him when she lets slip that she has a pretty good idea of his schedule alone is extremely revealing. Wonder where they're going to go with it. The original movie didn't really show why they'd want to be together, if that makes any sense.

It wouldn't be the MCU without off-screen relationship development .

[boots]

I guess it depends how you look at it.

Spec felt more like Spider-Man's supporting cast of today since they were depicted in-character and as themselves but in a modern context, while in the MCU there might be some similar surface traits but they often feel like very different characters. Almost like you took Peter and his supporting cast, put them in a blender with Miles Morales, and then made MCU Spider-Man.

yeah, is it...how do i faithfully represent the source material on screen? or is it how do i take all the elements available to me within this IP and make the best spider-man movie from scratch?

neither is wrong in my books

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Mary Jane Watson was always cool and popular within the fiction.

Are we so sure about that? Remember that Lee introduced MJ and let her run riot in ASM#42-43, giving her this great introduction, but in the issues after that, MJ lost to Gwen and Peter and others kept shilling Gwen and so on at her expense. Which readers never bought evidenced by Romita Sr. pointing out they got letters well near the end of the run by people asking them why hey are sidelining MJ at the expense of Gwen. Then Lee wrote her out of the books, and she came back with that "ginchy" haircut, and in the Drug Trilogy tried to imply that she was responsible for Harry's drug addiction and so on (which later writers ignored because even back then, that was considered quite sexist). So MJ was always more popular with the audience then within the pages. She's the definitive example of "a character taking a life of her own" and working against and contrary to whatever intentions writers/editors have. Which remains the case.

Spectacular Spider-Man's Mary Jane was probably the most faithful adaptation of the character there's ever been.

She's in high school and not in college. It's not faithful to MJ as she was in high school which we were told and shown by Defalco. It's basically trying to do an amalgamated take of MJ's college characterization and putting that in teenage high school form. It's still an interpretation like everything else. No more valid or invalid than anything else. Though again I like the Spectacular cartoons. The Gwen Stacy in that cartoon is basically Ultimate Mary Jane and I liked that bit where Mj decides to give her a makeover and make her look more like 616 Gwen because it's a deep cut reference to the fact that Romita subsequently made Gwen look more like MJ to steal her thunder in the original comics.

Sounds like they're faithful adaptations of an not-so-faithful adaptation then.

Why do you insist so much that MJ be shown and known only for her depiction in the L-R era but don't apply those standards to Gwen Stacy who is never shown once as she was in the L-R era. None of the screen Gwens we have hate Spider-Man or blame him for her father's death. To me it seems that you are just trying to undermine the character by insisting on your arbitrary criteria for faithfulness. And again inconsistent. Because MJ was introduced in college and not in high school. Even Dan Slott points out that college and high school are two totally different things.

this supporting cast feel the most millennial

Technically Peter's cast in Homecoming is Generation Z. The generation after the millennials. The Millennials are people born just before the cold war ended and were in their childhood, tweens or teens when 9/11 happened. Basically millennials are young enough to not remember the Cold War except as stories parents told them, but old enough to have known about 9/11. Generation Z are kids born after 9/11. The reference for Generation Z is those kids who did the marches across the nation for gun control after those shootings at Parkland.

The 23 year old Peter and MJ in the PS4 game are millennials, while Miles is Generation Z in that game. The HOMECOMING Peter and so on has more in common with Miles down to Ganke who for some reason other people call Ned Leeds. Miles' whole thing is trying to live up to the legacy of a pre-established hero similar to MCU Peter and Tony.

[boots]

Technically Peter's cast in Homecoming is Generation Z. The generation after the millennials. The Millennials are people born just before the cold war ended and were in their childhood, tweens or teens when 9/11 happened. Basically millennials are young enough to not remember the Cold War except as stories parents told them, but old enough to have known about 9/11. Generation Z are kids born after 9/11. The reference for Generation Z is those kids who did the marches across the nation for gun control after those shootings at Parkland.

The 23 year old Peter and MJ in the PS4 game are millennials, while Miles is Generation Z in that game. The HOMECOMING Peter and so on has more in common with Miles down to Ganke who for some reason other people call Ned Leeds. Miles' whole thing is trying to live up to the legacy of a pre-established hero similar to MCU Peter and Tony.

thanks for the correction. i suppose that only enhances how fresh it feels to an aging millennial like me.