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  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    The Emma Stone thing was a non starter that happened during BND, I heard rumors that Gwen was meant to come back with Harry but the editors didn’t want to change so much history or something I didn’t pay attention because I thought it was full of crap.
    Slott said that he and the other BND writers were offered Gwen back, and they all said no. Clearly this was something the folks at Marvel had discussed internally.

  2. #407

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Slott said that he and the other BND writers were offered Gwen back, and they all said no. Clearly this was something the folks at Marvel had discussed internally.
    Also when BND was announced, Emma Stone wasn't cast yet in the Amazing Spider-Man movies. BND happened in 2007-2008, the first Garfield movie came out in 2012.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Ok one the Mary Jane in the PS4 game is nothing like the comics version
    The PS4 version is quite similar to Ultimate Mary Jane, and indeed so is the Peter Parker of that game.

    plus I could be wrong
    You haven't actually played the game, it sounds like. So of course you could be wrong. In either case, them getting together at the end doesn't alter the fact that MJ is the main love interest in the game, also main sidekick to Peter, Mission Control (in gaming terms, she's the voice on the other end of the comms), and one of three playable characters.

    Important question for me is when.
    Last year. I read a good chunk of the Lee-Romita run last year including the final stretches, and followed sequentially after that into Conway's run.

    But we were denied Gwen, I donít mean MJ_Gwen what I mean is Gwen as herself, people say that Stan tried everything but did he, what storylines did she have, what development, what did we know about her that we didnít know before, I can think of the top of my head plenty of stories that you could tell but hindsight is twenty twenty I think Stan tried a experiment and it was too late. I think Gwen needed to be a character of her own and legend that he is Stan didnít give us that so yes I am happy to say I was denied Gwen.
    Stan Lee believed that Spider-Man's stories needed a heroine. A consistent steady love interest. That's something he has always pushed for. He believed that having Peter go from one love interest to another wasn't suitable to the stories. The problem as Lee later admitted was that he backed the wrong horse, Mary Jane was more suited to be the heroine than Gwen was. Like famously when Stan Lee gave a speech in the '70s where he apparently codified what became called the "illusion of change", he said that he didn't want "any new girlfriends" for Spider-Man. He said keep MJ and that's it. Likewise, when Lee was producer of the '90s Spider-Man cartoon he insisted that Mary Jane be the main romantic interest and only girl. John Semper tried to argue against that, and managed a compromise, but again Lee was quite insistent on that. That reflects actual follow through and real beliefs.

    In the case of Gwen, once Lee decided that she was to be the romantic lead, he kept adding new elements to make her work. He introduced her being the daughter of George Stacy and the problem was that Lee's writing of women was so weak that George Stacy ended up becoming the more complex character at Gwen's expense. What should have been a supporting character that made Gwen more developed, ended up weakening her since now she was a daddy's girl and so on. Gwen never had a life apart from Peter or her father, and she wasn't all that developed.

  3. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Ok one the Mary Jane in the PS4 game is nothing like the comics version plus I could be wrong ¬– searching yep their relationship wasn¬’t a big part of the game sorry what I mean to say was that From what I have seen the relationship wasn¬’t a big factor and Peter and MJ rekindled their relationship at the end of the game rather than the beginning. I think you are going to say she was supportive and she was in the game instead of Carlie or Gwen my counter Carlie was never appearing in the game, the PS4 was in 2018 the experiment of Carlie was dead however one part did come through and that was Yuri who also appeared in the game. Gwen could have appeared maybe but Mary Jane is the iconic and most developed of Peter¬’s love interests I would have been surprised even they hadn¬’t used her.
    You are wrong.

    MJ is introduced as Peter’s former girlfriend and it’s clear from the beginning they still have feelings for each other. They broke up because Peter was too overprotective.

    There is a prequel novel to the game by David Liss that depicts them as very much in love, but also introducing why Peter is too overprotective.

    The relationship is very much part of the game’s story and MJ is given agency that moves the story forward. Which is why MJ is also featured in the comic book adaptation of the game. Their reconciliation is developed throughout the game, it is not something just thrown together at the end. It is an integral story thread.

    But we were denied Gwen, I don¬’t mean MJ_Gwen what I mean is Gwen as herself, people say that Stan tried everything but did he, what storylines did she have, what development, what did we know about her that we didn¬’t know before, I can think of the top of my head plenty of stories that you could tell but hindsight is twenty twenty I think Stan tried a experiment and it was too late. I think Gwen needed to be a character of her own and legend that he is Stan didn¬’t give us that so yes I am happy to say I was denied Gwen.
    We weren’t denied anything. This was the story they tried to tell, they wanted to tell, and they told it.

    What you are describing is fan fiction and your personal head canon, your personal idea of who the character is. But that is your head canon and Marvel is not denying you simply because your head canon is not official.

    You say you are a writer. Feel free to tell those stories yourself. You can even publish them for others to read on fan fiction sites.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 06-20-2019 at 06:05 PM. Reason: Weird characters

  4. #409

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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    You know this annoys me because maybe he would have been maybe he wont; we donít know because Stan did have him graduated high school and then college.
    Actually it was Steve Ditko who made that call. Ditko had control over the book's plotting from ASM#25 (which happens to be Mary Jane's first "appearance" albeit her face is covered) till the end of his run in ASM#38. And it was in those issues that Ditko had Peter graduate (ASM#28), and then sent him to college (ASM#31-33, aka the Master Planner saga). If Ditko wanted to keep him in high school he had control to do so and it would be the next artist/collaborator who made the call to age Peter or not. Not that Stan Lee had issues with that.

    In any case, if Peter never graduated high school, he never would have met Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn. He might still have met Mary Jane since eventually he would have run into the girl his Aunt wanted him to meet.

    You canít guess what would have happened in hindsight unless it happened. The question of what if is a destructive one and should be taken with a grain of salt.
    Aren't you the one so sure that Gwen would have been as big as MJ if she hadn't been killed off. That's a big What-If question and it operates under the assumption that character development is replicable and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    You have lost me, I mean really how dare you, how dare you quote a fact that you can never prove.
    In general, in the case of any work of art, whether it's a movie, a game, a TV show, or a comic, you have the divide between first-run audiences, the ones who experience it when it came out and the ones who go back and re-read it, or pass it on and so on. It's generally true that the first-run audiences will always exceed the ones who come after. There are exceptions, like Star Wars, or The Simpsons which seem to always retain and maintain audiences. Like I am sure more people have seen Star Wars A New Hope than Star Wars the last jedi which is rare for something like that to happen. In the case of comics runs, more people will have read Dan Slott and the BND run when it came out than in the trade when they go back. In either case, the casual audience for Slott will always be greater when he was ongoing than in the trade. And overall casual readership is always higher when a writer is ongoing than when they go in trade.

    The problem is that given the fact that the comics market is several times smaller today than before, the casual readership of an ongoing run is smaller than before. So you can argue that the difference between the people who go back and read Slott and BND and the ones who were casual readers is smaller than the one that existed before. Empirical judgment proves that the comics of the 80s and 90s sold more and were read more, by several factors than comics today. Comics today cater to a very small niche market. And specialized fans. Specialized fans are as likely if not more to read older comics runs than ones which are more recent. So as time passes, the number of people who will read the marriage era Spider-Man stories in the trade or in back issues will be near the same as the ones who go and read Slott and BND in the trade.

    But that means that the overall readership of the earlier Spider-Man runs will be greater and continue to augment over newer and more recent runs. So empirically, yeah, more people over time will have read the Spider-Man marriage era than what came after. The era of the marriage sold incredibly well. It included among other things the best selling Spider-Man comic of all time and several best-selling runs, and stories. The comics market shrunk already between the JMS era and the BND-Slott era, so readership of the former was likely higher and greater than the latter. Indeed as Bleeding Cool pointed out, while Sales in the BND era were good, per-reader count had actually dropped and the general sense is that Spider-Man comics have earned more by selling to fewer eyeballs (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/12...an-statistics/).

    I mean this is a very good reason for people to hate pro marriage fans
    I don't think you should hate any group of fans. If they make an argument, respond to it, and try and argue with it. But hating someone seems petty and pointless. I certainly don't hate any kind of fans, except the ones who are you know evil (i.e. comicsgate people).

  5. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Actually it was Steve Ditko who made that call.


    He checked to see if Stan wanted it first, so it was a joint decision.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 06-23-2019 at 05:28 AM.

  6. #411

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    He checked to see if Stan wanted it first, so it was a joint decision.
    The fact that Ditko had to remind and double-check with Stan first, shows that it was his idea, his initiative, his plot, and more or less his decision.

    Ditko could have chosen not to remind Stan, he could have chosen to continue doing the same status-quo and so on. He instead thought he'd graduate Peter to high school, he then ran it past Stan Lee's secretary Flo, and that's it.

    It's similar to politics where before anything can be discussed for debate, it has to show up on the agenda of the day and the Speaker or someone else decides if it's worth a discussion. In collaboration, decision-making happens by people deciding on what to remind or what to bring up. Since Stan Lee had a weak memory and so on, and tossed a bunch of ideas, and since Ditko was doing the majority of the work in plotting, it was on him to choose from that list of suggestions what to put on the agenda.

    If Ditko had issues with Peter growing up, he'd simply decide to not do it, and then leave, and it would be up to Stan and another collaborator to decide.

  7. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The fact that Ditko had to remind and double-check with Stan first, shows that it was his idea, his initiative, his plot, and more or less his decision.
    It says right there that it was one of many story ideas they had discussed together, and Steve asked Stan if he still wanted to do it before he plotted and drew the issue.

  8. #413

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    A few posts have been deleted.

    There's no need to be a jerk, and it's an especially bad look when you're arguing with someone who has the facts on their side.

  9. #414

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Slott said that he and the other BND writers were offered Gwen back, and they all said no. Clearly this was something the folks at Marvel had discussed internally.
    No I know but they brought harry back but Gwen would change too much or something

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Also when BND was announced, Emma Stone wasn't cast yet in the Amazing Spider-Man movies. BND happened in 2007-2008, the first Garfield movie came out in 2012.
    Ok woo I thought Brand New Day lasted for longer than 12-24 issues, considering it has at least four complete collections
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...eries_rw_dp_sw
    According to this it lasted from 546 to 601.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The PS4 version is quite similar to Ultimate Mary Jane, and indeed so is the Peter Parker of that game.
    Sorry should have clarified not like the 616 characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    You haven't actually played the game, it sounds like. So of course you could be wrong. In either case, them getting together at the end doesn't alter the fact that MJ is the main love interest in the game, also main sidekick to Peter, Mission Control (in gaming terms, she's the voice on the other end of the comms), and one of three playable characters.
    Don’t really have time to play games between reading, writing, watching tv shows and social groups sometimes I think I don’t have enough time to sleep however I do know that MJ isn’t the only Mission Control and I thought the sidekick was only one mission need to watch the game movie again to be sure when I find the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Last year. I read a good chunk of the Lee-Romita run last year including the final stretches, and followed sequentially after that into Conway's run.
    I’m going to try over the next couple of weeks to read it and take notes of Stories I could tell see what I come up with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Stan Lee believed that Spider-Man's stories needed a heroine. A consistent steady love interest. That's something he has always pushed for. He believed that having Peter go from one love interest to another wasn't suitable to the stories.
    Maybe or Maybe not but it does help the medium slightly or I think so, case in point how long has Sharon Carter been dating Steve Rogers no where near 30 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The problem as Lee later admitted was that he backed the wrong horse, Mary Jane was more suited to be the heroine than Gwen was. Like famously when Stan Lee gave a speech in the '70s where he apparently codified what became called the "illusion of change", he said that he didn't want "any new girlfriends" for Spider-Man. He said keep MJ and that's it.
    Sorry I need a year because Gwen died in 1973 and I read that Stan was upset about it, the story goes that they had come to him asking him to ok this story and he wasn’t thinking clearly and he replied Well, if that’s what you want to do okay because at the time he just wanted out of the office and then he was upset and they reminded him he had reluctantly or perhaps carelessly said okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Likewise, when Lee was producer of the '90s Spider-Man cartoon he insisted that Mary Jane be the main romantic interest and only girl. John Semper tried to argue against that, and managed a compromise, but again Lee was quite insistent on that. That reflects actual follow through and real beliefs.
    The 90’s would have been after about after 15years of development and if he believed that Peter should have only one girl I can understand and respect that decision don’t agree with it but I can understand it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In the case of Gwen, once Lee decided that she was to be the romantic lead, he kept adding new elements to make her work. He introduced her being the daughter of George Stacy and the problem was that Lee's writing of women was so weak that George Stacy ended up becoming the more complex character at Gwen's expense. What should have been a supporting character that made Gwen more developed, ended up weakening her since now she was a daddy's girl and so on. Gwen never had a life apart from Peter or her father, and she wasn't all that developed.
    That’s what I’m talking about Gwen wasn’t developed and Conway noted that her and Peter were a perfect couple strange how marriage and revealing his identity would betray everything that Spider-Man was about once again I can respect Conway’s view point I don’t have to like or agree with it. Marvel must have because not too long after guess what happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    You are wrong.
    Ok goody more people telling me I’m wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    MJ is introduced as Peter’s former girlfriend and it’s clear from the beginning they still have feelings for each other. They broke up because Peter was too overprotective.
    Ok so there aren’t dating during the game, guess it depends on what your definition of a love interest is, from the game movie I always thought it didn’t come up a lot maybe 2 scenes, I meant the relationship btw maybe I should count when I rewatch it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    There is a prequel novel to the game by David Liss that depicts them as very much in love, but also introducing why Peter is too overprotective.
    Cool is that comic or novel

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    The relationship is very much part of the game’s story and MJ is given agency that moves the story forward. Which is why MJ is also featured in the comic book adaptation of the game. Their reconciliation is developed throughout the game, it is not something just thrown together at the end. It is an integral story thread.
    Guess I’ll watch the game movie again and see if I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    We weren’t denied anything. This was the story they tried to tell, they wanted to tell, and they told it.
    Well that’s your opinion even Revolutionary Jack admits that she wasn’t developed well which is what I meant by we were denied Gwen, a Gwen that was her own character, the stuff I describe was questions that I wanted to ask about Gwen before she died in 1973. But isn’t it amazing when my OTP si destroyed and ripped to shreds in the comics it’s the story they tried to tell, they wanted to tell and the one they told when it destroys your OTP it’s a abomination they has to be reversed because the “real” spider-man is dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    What you are describing is fan fiction and your personal head canon, your personal idea of who the character is. But that is your head canon and Marvel is not denying you simply because your head canon is not official.
    Actually asking questions isn’t fan fiction, the fact I have ideas of stories they could have told is what I believe to be missed opportunities. To be fair I don’t want my head canon to be official for various reasons

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    You say you are a writer. Feel free to tell those stories yourself. You can even publish them for others to read on fan fiction sites.
    I intend to but you are kinda missing an important point, OTP should be respected by everybody however extreme MJ and Gwen fans don’t the fact that we even have shipper wars proves that. So one question why is it ok for you to say the “real” spider-man can only be with MJ and that I can write Peter/Gwen in fanfiction however in the comics MJ is his soul mate and I have to agree, accept and move on when I don’t.
    Truth is the best policy

  10. #415

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Actually it was Steve Ditko who made that call. Ditko had control over the book's plotting from ASM#25 (which happens to be Mary Jane's first "appearance" albeit her face is covered) till the end of his run in ASM#38. And it was in those issues that Ditko had Peter graduate (ASM#28), and then sent him to college (ASM#31-33, aka the Master Planner saga). If Ditko wanted to keep him in high school he had control to do so and it would be the next artist/collaborator who made the call to age Peter or not. Not that Stan Lee had issues with that.
    Interesting

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In any case, if Peter never graduated high school, he never would have met Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborn. He might still have met Mary Jane since eventually he would have run into the girl his Aunt wanted him to meet.
    For me the important word is might and Harry and Gwen could have been brought in as transfers as has happened before either they transfer or peter does. Remember the lastest spider-man character has gwen/harry but not mary-jane yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Aren't you the one so sure that Gwen would have been as big as MJ if she hadn't been killed off. That's a big What-If question and it operates under the assumption that character development is replicable and so on.
    I’m basing it on what I have heard maybe I’m wrong or maybe I’m not, I’m good at lots of things but predicating what could have been. I can’t change the past nor predicate or change the future, I know my limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In general, in the case of any work of art, whether it's a movie, a game, a TV show, or a comic, you have the divide between first-run audiences, the ones who experience it when it came out and the ones who go back and re-read it, or pass it on and so on. It's generally true that the first-run audiences will always exceed the ones who come after. There are exceptions, like Star Wars, or The Simpsons which seem to always retain and maintain audiences. Like I am sure more people have seen Star Wars A New Hope than Star Wars the last jedi which is rare for something like that to happen. In the case of comics runs, more people will have read Dan Slott and the BND run when it came out than in the trade when they go back. In either case, the casual audience for Slott will always be greater when he was ongoing than in the trade. And overall casual readership is always higher when a writer is ongoing than when they go in trade.

    The problem is that given the fact that the comics market is several times smaller today than before, the casual readership of an ongoing run is smaller than before. So you can argue that the difference between the people who go back and read Slott and BND and the ones who were casual readers is smaller than the one that existed before. Empirical judgment proves that the comics of the 80s and 90s sold more and were read more, by several factors than comics today. Comics today cater to a very small niche market. And specialized fans. Specialized fans are as likely if not more to read older comics runs than ones which are more recent. So as time passes, the number of people who will read the marriage era Spider-Man stories in the trade or in back issues will be near the same as the ones who go and read Slott and BND in the trade.

    But that means that the overall readership of the earlier Spider-Man runs will be greater and continue to augment over newer and more recent runs. So empirically, yeah, more people over time will have read the Spider-Man marriage era than what came after. The era of the marriage sold incredibly well. It included among other things the best selling Spider-Man comic of all time and several best-selling runs, and stories. The comics market shrunk already between the JMS era and the BND-Slott era, so readership of the former was likely higher and greater than the latter. Indeed as Bleeding Cool pointed out, while Sales in the BND era were good, per-reader count had actually dropped and the general sense is that Spider-Man comics have earned more by selling to fewer eyeballs (https://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/12...an-statistics/).
    Eyeballs can look at in in many other ways, do these sales figures include digital sales, trade sales I’m saying to me it is unwise to say that something is fact and say what you said that more eyeballs will read the marriage as BND era ever will, there are factors you cant predict is it likely from your research the probability is high but wouldn’t say it was a fact myself. Strange things can happen, I mean a businessman is PTOUS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I don't think you should hate any group of fans. If they make an argument, respond to it, and try and argue with it. But hating someone seems petty and pointless. I certainly don't hate any kind of fans, except the ones who are you know evil (i.e. comicsgate people).
    Generally I don’t like to hate people for me if we all have respect then I can let a lot of things go however when you starting saying things are fact when they are subjective it annoys me. The extreme ones for me are the worse (I think the comicsgate count) where it is their way or no way and they refuse to budge no matter what.
    Truth is the best policy

  11. #416

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    Quote Originally Posted by VolcanikTiger86 View Post
    Ok woo I thought Brand New Day lasted for longer than 12-24 issues, considering it has at least four complete collections
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...eries_rw_dp_sw
    According to this it lasted from 546 to 601.
    I guess you aren't aware, not that I blame you since it's kind of hard to appreciate in retrospect but Brand New Day was published three-times-a-month. That is to say in one month you get three issues of Amazing Spider-Man. This was a decision taken to justify removing the satellite titles from the JMS era: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, Sensational Spider-Man, and one other I think. The idea was that Amazing Spider-Man would now take pride of place and be the only Spider-Man title but now come out three times a month. So in a given year you would have instead of 12 issues, you now had 36 issues. Add that for three years and you had 108, so between 2008-2011, that entire BND era you mentioned transpired. When Dan Slott took over it dropped down to 2 issues a month (which has remained in place to this day, barring exceptions like Hunted with its '.HU' issues). The reason BND worked that way was that you had a writing team of four writers (some coming and going with Marc Guggenheim and Slott being the most prolific and long lasting) and you had an editor like Stephen Wacker who had edited the 52 series which managed a similar feat.

    So the entire BND era was indeed published before the production, announcement, casting, and release of Amazing Spider-Man films. Having said that, publisher Tom Brevoort did say it was a mistake to kill off Emma Stone in the second Amazing Spider-Man film. So if Sony decided not to kill off Gwen in ASM 2, or if an ASM-2 with a still alive Gwen was successful, then there might have been a chance, emphasis on might, for Gwen to have come back. The two Garfield Amazing movies made far less money than the ones that Sam Raimi made, and even then there were complaints about the movies working better as romance than superhero whereas Raimi in the first two movies balanced both. So ultimately, Gwen didn't prove herself as a commercially succcesful character and certainly not with Peter in a romance. The most successful version of Gwen is ITSV where she's younger than Peter, and is a romantic foil for Miles. So that means that the classic Gwen Stacy is finished more or less.

    Maybe or Maybe not but it does help the medium slightly or I think so, case in point how long has Sharon Carter been dating Steve Rogers no where near 30 years.
    Cap has actually had love interests other than Sharon. And in any case, Cap's real love is the American Dream, and Bucky. So romance is not a priority with him.

    Sorry I need a year because Gwen died in 1973 and I read that Stan was upset about it, the story goes that they had come to him asking him to ok this story and he wasn’t thinking clearly and he replied Well, if that’s what you want to do okay because at the time he just wanted out of the office and then he was upset and they reminded him he had reluctantly or perhaps carelessly said okay.
    That's not exactly the case. Stan Lee was totally indifferent to the idea of killing Gwen. He knew about it, he approved it, and had no objections to it at all. His reaction changed when angry fanboys at college campus circuits (where Lee gave speeches and was commonly invited) harassed him in public for killing Gwen. Lee always wanted to be liked and didn't like controversy becoming his problem. So he would denounce Conway in public and say he knew nothing about it (when he knew fully well, was informed about it and so on). What Lee did was quite the d--k move since Conway was a young 20 year old guy and Lee was the veteran publisher and yet here was Lee putting his own reputation among fans over his responsibility as a publisher to defend young writers. It was so bad that Roy Thomas, Lee's real-life best friend, and then Editor in Chief, wrote a public letter calling Lee out, saying Lee was lying about it, that he knew Gwen would die, he okayed it and so on. Behind the scenes, Stan Lee told Conway to bring Gwen back somehow. Conway agreed by writing the First Clone Saga where a clone of Gwen Stacy returns. Had public opinion not immediately embraced Peter and Mary Jane (which it did), that story would have been made a vehicle to really bring Gwen back for good. Once Lee was satisfied with that, i.e. the Peter/MJ romance being popular and preferable to Gwen's return, which is what the entire First Clone Saga is about, he agreed and never looked back.

    Stan Lee had total control over the newspaper strip and he never introduced Gwen there. The truth is that all indications suggest that Lee looked at Spider-Man pragmatically and not personally. He went with whatever worked, even when the stuff that worked went against his original ideas. Since audiences liked and preferred Mary Jane to Gwen, and even Lee liked MJ as a character, he decided that MJ was the heroine of the franchise.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 06-24-2019 at 07:36 AM.

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I guess you aren't aware, not that I blame you since it's kind of hard to appreciate in retrospect but Brand New Day was published three-times-a-month. That is to say in one month you get three issues of Amazing Spider-Man. This was a decision taken to justify removing the satellite titles from the JMS era: Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man, Sensational Spider-Man, and one other I think. The idea was that Amazing Spider-Man would now take pride of place and be the only Spider-Man title but now come out three times a month. So in a given year you would have instead of 12 issues, you now had 36 issues. Add that for three years and you had 108, so between 2008-2011, that entire BND era you mentioned transpired. When Dan Slott took over it dropped down to 2 issues a month (which has remained in place to this day, barring exceptions like Hunted with its '.HU' issues). The reason BND worked that way was that you had a writing team of four writers (some coming and going with Marc Guggenheim and Slott being the most prolific and long lasting) and you had an editor like Stephen Wacker who had edited the 52 series which managed a similar feat.

    So the entire BND era was indeed published before the production, announcement, casting, and release of Amazing Spider-Man films. Having said that, publisher Tom Brevoort did say it was a mistake to kill off Emma Stone in the second Amazing Spider-Man film. So if Sony decided not to kill off Gwen in ASM 2, or if an ASM-2 with a still alive Gwen was successful, then there might have been a chance, emphasis on might, for Gwen to have come back. The two Garfield Amazing movies made far less money than the ones that Sam Raimi made, and even then there were complaints about the movies working better as romance than superhero whereas Raimi in the first two movies balanced both. So ultimately, Gwen didn't prove herself as a commercially succcesful character and certainly not with Peter in a romance. The most successful version of Gwen is ITSV where she's younger than Peter, and is a romantic foil for Miles. So that means that the classic Gwen Stacy is finished more or less.



    Cap has actually had love interests other than Sharon. And in any case, Cap's real love is the American Dream, and Bucky. So romance is not a priority with him.



    That's not exactly the case. Stan Lee was totally indifferent to the idea of killing Gwen. He knew about it, he approved it, and had no objections to it at all. His reaction changed when angry fanboys at college campus circuits (where Lee gave speeches and was commonly invited) harassed him in public for killing Gwen. Lee always wanted to be liked and didn't like controversy becoming his problem. So he would denounce Conway in public and say he knew nothing about it (when he knew fully well, was informed about it and so on). What Lee did was quite the d--k move since Conway was a young 20 year old guy and Lee was the veteran publisher and yet here was Lee putting his own reputation among fans over his responsibility as a publisher to defend young writers. It was so bad that Roy Thomas, Lee's real-life best friend, and then Editor in Chief, wrote a public letter calling Lee out, saying Lee was lying about it, that he knew Gwen would die, he okayed it and so on. Behind the scenes, Stan Lee told Conway to bring Gwen back somehow. Conway agreed by writing the First Clone Saga where a clone of Gwen Stacy returns. Had public opinion not immediately embraced Peter and Mary Jane (which it did), that story would have been made a vehicle to really bring Gwen back for good. Once Lee was satisfied with that, i.e. the Peter/MJ romance being popular and preferable to Gwen's return, which is what the entire First Clone Saga is about, he agreed and never looked back.

    Stan Lee had total control over the newspaper strip and he never introduced Gwen there. The truth is that all indications suggest that Lee looked at Spider-Man pragmatically and not personally. He went with whatever worked, even when the stuff that worked went against his original ideas. Since audiences liked and preferred Mary Jane to Gwen, and even Lee liked MJ as a character, he decided that MJ was the heroine of the franchise.
    You are exactly right. MJ generally speaking is a better character then Gwen ( Kristen Dunst's MJ was an exception, I found her inferior to Emma Stone's Gwen). I prefer MJ for several reasons. 1: She is a tougher character then Gwen ever was. 2:: MJ who came from "The wrong side of the tracks" is much more relatable then "Blue Blood" Gwen. 3: She is much more understanding then Gwen when it comes to Spider-Man. Mt question is this? The Gwen supporters: Are most of them supporting Gwen because they prefer Gwen, or is it they are Anti-MJ? The reason I question this is, I do not see the Gwen supporters saying why they prefer Gwen? Preferring Emma Stone is perfectly understandable( I admit to liking her as Gwen). But I do not see her name popping up that often when it comes to liking Gwen. I would like to hear from Gwen supporters why they prefer a character who died in 1973 over MJ or even Felicia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    You are exactly right. MJ generally speaking is a better character then Gwen ( Kristen Dunst's MJ was an exception, I found her inferior to Emma Stone's Gwen).
    Funny, I found that to be the exact opposite; while Stone may have delivered a better performance (although I think I've seen a lot better, too), the writing and characterized was worse and made for an incredibly shallow character. Dunst's MJ did get her own story arc and motivations, while Stone's Gwen was completely defined by Peter and only existed to prop up his story. Mileage may vary, but I strongly suspect if a lesser actress had been cast, that Stone's Gwen would not be so fondly remembered.

    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I prefer MJ for several reasons. 1: She is a tougher character then Gwen ever was. 2:: MJ who came from "The wrong side of the tracks" is much more relatable then "Blue Blood" Gwen. 3: She is much more understanding then Gwen when it comes to Spider-Man. Mt question is this? The Gwen supporters: Are most of them supporting Gwen because they prefer Gwen, or is it they are Anti-MJ? The reason I question this is, I do not see the Gwen supporters saying why they prefer Gwen? Preferring Emma Stone is perfectly understandable( I admit to liking her as Gwen). But I do not see her name popping up that often when it comes to liking Gwen. I would like to hear from Gwen supporters why they prefer a character who died in 1973 over MJ or even Felicia?
    Can't say I prefer Gwen (since I don't), but is it really unfair for people to prefer character X because they like a specific iteration(s) of the character, even if it's not the original one? Heck, I have no use for 616 Gwen, but found the Ultimate Comics and Spectacular cartoon versions to be worthwhile characters.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Funny, I found that to be the exact opposite; while Stone may have delivered a better performance (although I think I've seen a lot better, too), the writing and characterized was worse and made for an incredibly shallow character. Dunst's MJ did get her own story arc and motivations, while Stone's Gwen was completely defined by Peter and only existed to prop up his story. Mileage may vary, but I strongly suspect if a lesser actress had been cast, that Stone's Gwen would not be so fondly remembered.



    Can't say I prefer Gwen (since I don't), but is it really unfair for people to prefer character X because they like a specific iteration(s) of the character, even if it's not the original one? Heck, I have no use for 616 Gwen, but found the Ultimate Comics and Spectacular cartoon versions to be worthwhile characters.
    of
    Rebuttal point: I do not think the reason why Emma Stone is fondly remembered as Gwen is becaus of how great an actress she is. It is that she fit Gwen better then Dunst fit MJ. A different example of this concerns Joker
    No one thinks Heath Ledger is as great an actor as Jack Nicholson, but when it came to playing Joker, his version won the Oscar It is what it is. Another example concerns Halle Berry. She is an Oscar winner who is considered a better actress then Michelle Pheiffer, Ertha Kitt, Julie Newmar or Lee Merriweather, but when it comes to Catwoman: She us universally considered the worst at playing her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    of
    Rebuttal point: I do not think the reason why Emma Stone is fondly remembered as Gwen is becaus of how great an actress she is. It is that she fit Gwen better then Dunst fit MJ. A different example of this concerns Joker
    No one thinks Heath Ledger is as great an actor as Jack Nicholson, but when it came to playing Joker, his version won the Oscar It is what it is. Another example concerns Halle Berry. She is an Oscar winner who is considered a better actress then Michelle Pheiffer, Ertha Kitt, Julie Newmar or Lee Merriweather, but when it comes to Catwoman: She us universally considered the worst at playing her.
    Be as that may be (and it is a fair point that an award-wining actor won't deliver a better performance by default and that getting the right person can make or break role), my point is that, on paper, MJ from the original movies is arguably a far better realized character then Gwen was in the reboot. However, the latter was better liked despite being a weaker character (esp. odd since she demonstrates a lot of things that other love interest characters are criticized). Factoring in all that with the observation that Stone herself got a lot of praise for her acting (which, as badly written as Gwen is, does stand out), it's not too huge a leap in logic that she "saved" the character.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

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