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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    Spider-Man, and consequently Peter, was the first man Felicia learned to trust and love wholeheartedly after being the victim of sexual assault. The circumstances behind the controversial series may be difficult to address, but this is certainly not an insignificant detail or lack of character development.
    I feel she had a lot of character development before that. To me the appeal of Felicia is precisely that she is fully formed. She would be Black Cat with or without Peter Parker or Spider-man. That's how she was introduced. The dynamic in the Stern/Mantlo era is that she is simultaneously more wordly and cynical than Peter and yet Spider-Man despite being more naive and innocent is the one with the greater sense of reality.

    I also think that Felicia was a pretty effective supporting character in Marvel Knights Spider-Man and Sacassia's Sensational Spider-Man series which came out in that time too.

    I consider this aspects such as this to be engaging storytelling and not a copycat schematic of Catwoman as so many are quick to accuse.
    It's not just me. It's also Spider-Man's own long-term editor Jim Salicrup considered the best line editor by Roger Stern, DeMatteis, and Michelinie. He himself said that Felicia's similarity to Selina Kyle always hampers her as a character.

    Felicia is a terrific character in Spider-Man's stories but outside of the very specific kind of niche writers and others forced her in, it's hard to get a grasp on her. Hopefully her ongoing will address that somehow.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I feel she had a lot of character development before that. To me the appeal of Felicia is precisely that she is fully formed. She would be Black Cat with or without Peter Parker or Spider-man. That's how she was introduced. The dynamic in the Stern/Mantlo era is that she is simultaneously more wordly and cynical than Peter and yet Spider-Man despite being more naive and innocent is the one with the greater sense of reality.
    To play Mephisto's advocate: Who is Mary Jane Watson outside of being a perennial love interest to Spider-Man, Peter Parker? Party girl? Fashion model? Actress? The Lois Lane of the Daily Bugle? She seems to be more of a supportive and dependent character in this regard. At the very least Marvel made a conviction to re-invent and reintroduce the character of Gwen Stacy. In 2019 we have so many entertainment options and mediums. I do not understand why Mary Jane must be the unquestionable love interest and "endgame" for Peter Parker in nearly all of them. There are plentiful options if you are invested in the Peter Parker/MJ love story—everything from comics to novels as well as video games to cinema. I mean, there's even a story where Mary Jane tragically dies of cancer because of radioactive intimacy with Peter.

  3. #33
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    To play Mephisto's advocate: Who is Mary Jane Watson outside of being a perennial love interest to Spider-Man, Peter Parker? Party girl? Fashion model? Actress? The Lois Lane of the Daily Bugle? She seems to be more of a supportive and dependent character in this regard. At the very least Marvel made a conviction to re-invent and reintroduce the character of Gwen Stacy. In 2019 we have so many entertainment options and mediums. I do not understand why Mary Jane must be the unquestionable love interest and "endgame" for Peter Parker in nearly all of them.
    This reminds me of posters on certain forums that complain/donít understand why Ganondorf is the final boss in so many Zelda games or why the Dragon Ball series keeps having to be about Goku so much. Certain characters being in certain roles is what defines some properties, either by intent or over time through happy accident. Mary Jane is the latter. Over time she became one of the key ingredients in defining foundational Spider-Man lore, and hers is the role of main love interest.
    Last edited by Vortex85; 05-07-2019 at 12:40 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    I do not understand why Mary Jane must be the unquestionable love interest and "endgame" for Peter Parker in nearly all of them.r.
    Because as you say, she is Peter's Lois Lane, and the one selected by Stan Lee to be his wife at the request of the fanbase. The customer is always right.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Because as you say, she is Peter's Lois Lane, and the one selected by Stan Lee to be his wife at the request of the fanbase. The customer is always right.
    Tell that to Big Joe because of him consensus among new fans has seriously eroded due to a lack of cross-media love interest consistency this past decade. He has done more harm to the MJ Endgame idea than has anyone else. He is the Jamie Kellner (Pro Wrestling reference - see Death of WCW) of the Spider-Man Mythos lol.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    This reminds me of posters on certain forums that complain/don’t understand why Ganondorf is the final boss in so many Zelda games or why DBZ keeps having me to be about Goku so much. Certain characters being in certain roles is what defines some properties, either by intent or over time through happy accident. Mary Jane is the latter. Over time she became one of the key ingredients in defining foundational Spider-Man lore, and hers is the role of main love interest.
    I'm confused. Is she Ganondorf or Goku? I admittedly fail to grasp this analogy.

    As I stated in my first post, people seem to be entrenched with one of the several Peter Parker love interests with whom they have formed an attachment. Cheers to another thirty-five years I guess. Honestly, I must be a hypocrite for wasting my own time.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    I'm confused. Is she Ganondorf or Goku? I admittedly fail to grasp this analogy.

    As I stated in my first post, people seem to be entrenched with one of the several Peter Parker love interests with whom they have formed an attachment. Cheers to another thirty-five years I guess. Honestly, I must be a hypocrite for wasting my own time.
    I agree with you that views are indeed entrenched. As someone interested in various ships for Peter and who is not necessarily committed to MJ as Endgame I have often faced intense pushback on this forum. I still shudder when I recall the backlash I received after I suggested an alternate universe version of Peter could be gay or bisexual.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #38
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    true connoisseurs are on the betty train ride or die

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Tell that to Big Joe because of him consensus among new fans has seriously eroded due to a lack of cross-media love interest consistency this past decade.
    Which is now slowly beginning a gradual rebuilding process, pretty much in part to "Big Joe"
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 05-07-2019 at 01:00 PM.

  10. #40
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    I'm confused. Is she Ganondorf or Goku? I admittedly fail to grasp this analogy.

    As I stated in my first post, people seem to be entrenched with one of the several Peter Parker love interests with whom they have formed an attachment. Cheers to another thirty-five years I guess. Honestly, I must be a hypocrite for wasting my own time.
    In Dragon Ball Goku is the main protagonist but I have seen tons of posters questioning why it seems like he always gets to be the one to beat the villain or appear to be the star of the show. It’s because that’s his role in the series! Same with Ganondorf. I’ve seen several times people go on Zelda forums complaining that Ganondorf is it once again the final boss in another Zelda game. It’s because he’s the main antagonist! Sure there are some exception games but more than likely you can expect most big Zelda titles will continue to make this the case.

    Same with MJ, her role is the main love interest so you can expect in most Spider-man adaptations she will be the ENDGAME character that Peter is supposed to end up with.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Which is now slowly beginning a gradual rebuilding process, pretty much in part to "Big Joe"
    Time will tell, still, he did cause the problem so I give him zero credit for cleaning up his our mess (should that be the case) lol.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    true connoisseurs are on the betty train ride or die
    Betty or die.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Time will tell, still, he did cause the problem so I give him zero credit for cleaning up his our mess (should that be the case) lol.
    True.

    Still, Stan went to his grave overseeing an extra decade's worth of the Spider-Marriage, Renew Your Vows stuck around longer than expected, and MJ was the central love interest in the very successful video game. There was very much brand consistency with who Peter's endgame was across the years, regardless of how minimun the input was in the main books.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by KB06 View Post
    Who is Mary Jane Watson outside of being a perennial love interest to Spider-Man, Peter Parker? Party girl? Fashion model? Actress? The Lois Lane of the Daily Bugle? She seems to be more of a supportive and dependent character in this regard.
    I think you need to be specific about what you mean by 'supportive and dependent character'. If you mean that Mary Jane is a civilian, then yes. She is a out and proud civilian supporting character. This allows her to be the representative connection Spider-Man has with "the people" he is saving. This allows her to be the emotional center of the entire mythos. She represents the optimistic, accepting, and kindly side of that world. She represents the promise and hope for the future. She is, to quote Peter, in Tom Beland's "Web of Romance", "everything that I would never be without that bite from a spider". She comes from the exact same background that Peter did. Poor working-class kid who lived in Queens, but who also had her own issues with guilt and not being there for her family. Only she navigated that without the issue of superpowers so it becomes a kind of story of an ordinary person in that world.

    Take the first Spider-Man movie. Goblin kidnaps Spider-Man at the Bugle tells him that the sheeple will always hate supers and that it's the job of special people like Goblin and Spidey to do whatever they want to other people since they are above them, i.e. no responisibility all power. After that you have the montage showing the Bugle scapegoating Spidey and so on. And it's then that Spider-Man saves MJ in that alley and shares the upside down kiss. It's a romantic moment that shows no not all people are sheeple who will side against a hero. And it's also important that MJ kisses Spider-Man because she supports Spider-Man when he is hated and despised and not when everyone likes him. That completely overturns the whole Lois loves Superman hated Clark thing. It's a brave thing to stand by Spider-Man when everyone thinks he's a creep.

    So that's the emotional center and logic and why it's important to have that in stories.

    If you look at Marvel you will notice that many of their stories are team stories and as such all the major romance are within superheroes - Reed/Sue, Hank/Janet, Scott/Jean, Hawkeye/Mockingbird, Ororo/T'Challa, Rogue/Gambit, Wanda/Vision, Luke/Jessica. Within that context, Peter and Mary Jane are the only civilian/superhero marriage and relationship in that world. So that makes it unique and special in the Marvel Universe without anything to really take that. The constant hero/heroine couplings tend to make superheroes come across as dentists you know a profession that's quite famous for having spouses inside the same profession. IT also makes them a very cliquish "just us" world and so on.

    In 2019 we have so many entertainment options and mediums. I do not understand why Mary Jane must be the unquestionable love interest and "endgame" for Peter Parker in nearly all of them.
    For the same reason Peter is with Aunt May, and was raised by Uncle Ben. Somethings remain consistent and essential to the character.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    I think what makes the Peter and Felicia relationship interesting is that it goes in such a way I've always thought the Batman and Catwoman relationship probably would've explored at some point but never really did.

    We see how their relationship develops throughout all the years to a pretty complete narrative. They start out with just a simple sexual attraction to each other, pulled in by the mysterious sides of each other. This grows into greater feelings and Peter is able to pull her to the side of good as a crime fighter. Eventually they become close enough that Peter reveals his secret to her, something I don't think he had done to really anyone at that point, only for her to react in disgust, wanting to keep up the mystery illusion. This is what ultimately seals the deal in their relationship, as Peter believes she only really cares about the Spider-Man side, and after some complicated situations occur, he breaks up with her. However unaware of this, Felicia starts to develop actual feelings for Peter, but due to her own stubbornness and unsure of how to express her true feelings, overcompensates even more in her actions.

    By the time she's ready to open up, Peter has moved on with someone who openly accepted both sides of him, and while she first reacts very negatively, she realizes she just wants the best for him and grows to become his close friend and crime fighting partner, though still with those true feelings and "what if" she holds inside her. This version of her is a really fun and interesting character, and shows how she recognizes she screwed it up and instead make the best of what she can do.

    I do think its a huge missed opportunity there hasn't been one alternate reality story in which they worked things out and they grew as a couple. I think that could be incredibly cool to see how they would end up growing up together, I mean if there can be alternate Jean and Wolverine pairings, why not Spidey and Cat?
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

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