I know that MJ is Peter's main squeeze...

[Inversed]

Were their initial interactions better then when they were actually dating? Because I read that and Bobbi really didn't come off well as a girlfriend, from rubbing it in Peter's face that his company had imploded, or just in general seeming really annoyed or just barely into Peter in general.

When they were actually dating yeah I agree that they didn't really do much, since so much of it was either insulting or kissing and not really any in-between.I was more referring to the initial reveal when the cover was first shown before we saw how it would be written in the final product.

I think Slott cares more about Spider-Man as an identity or legacy then he does Peter Parker.

Because when you look at Superior or Spider-Verse...it's more about the idea of Spider-Man and what he represents then it necessarily is about Peter Parker, even if I think that's more the case with Spider-Verse then Superior.

Hence all the spinoff characters that popped up in his run.

Which to be fair, I don't think that's an inherently bad idea, Into The Spider-Verse showed how perfectly the "idea of Spider-Man" can work in a story. And I'll also say he does do alot to emphasis Peter's importance himself that drives Spider-Man's importance. That's essentially what the climaxes for Spider-Island, Superior, and Spider-Verse even boil down to.

I dunno. I think Thompson only really saw Felicia as a villainous character for Silk in the long run.

She was portrayed as a much more sympathetic villain than any of her other appearances, but yeah she was meant to be just an antagonist for the run. I do think its interesting like was mentioned, that he intended to have her heel turn be much earlier, but Marvel liked her as the crime boss and so she stuck around like that for a while and became the antagonist for other characters and books. I'm curious to know if he had his way when exactly would he have worked that heel turn into his book, during early Worldwide or right after Clone Conspiracy?

[Mister Mets]

Okay, hold on now. It's not that simple and you know it.

Kinda is. It's a nasty thing to go after someone's motives, especially in the face of conflicting evidence (IE- all the Spider-Man stuff one of the least prolific writers in comics chose to spend his energy on.) Going after motives because you don't like someone's take increases the chances of being the toxic combination of wrong and obnoxious.

[WebSlingWonder]

Kinda is. It's a nasty thing to go after someone's motives, especially in the face of conflicting evidence (IE- all the Spider-Man stuff one of the least prolific writers in comics chose to spend his energy on.) Going after motives because you don't like someone's take increases the chances of being the toxic combination of wrong and obnoxious.

Ouch. I'll try not to take offense to that, even if I didn't start it. In any case, I personally don't care if he liked or didn't like the character. He just...has a very weird way of showing that appreciation. If it were me, I'd be extra careful in how I approached the story, given the circumstances, you know?

[WebSlingWonder]

If I exhibit toxic traits let me apologize

[Frontier]

When they were actually dating yeah I agree that they didn't really do much, since so much of it was either insulting or kissing and not really any in-between.I was more referring to the initial reveal when the cover was first shown before we saw how it would be written in the final product.

I mean, on-paper I think they might have worked with all they had in common, but it didn't seem like something that was really realized on-page.

It also didn't help that she kind of seemed like she was set up as a Black Cat replacement:

- Blonde

- Costumed girlfriend.

- Black and white costume.

- Calls him "Spider."

- Cares more for Spider-Man then Peter Parker (but not by much)

Which to be fair, I don't think that's an inherently bad idea, Into The Spider-Verse showed how perfectly the "idea of Spider-Man" can work in a story. And I'll also say he does do alot to emphasis Peter's importance himself that drives Spider-Man's importance. That's essentially what the climaxes for Spider-Island, Superior, and Spider-Verse even boil down to.

I think Into the Spider-Verse showcased how important Peter Parker is to Spider-Man and the legacy of Spider-Man more then the comic Spider-Verse did.

I think Slott could focus on how important Peter is in abstract form if not when he was actually writing him, but I think he's equally as guilty of downplaying his importance and making him seem redundant.

She was portrayed as a much more sympathetic villain than any of her other appearances, but yeah she was meant to be just an antagonist for the run. I do think its interesting like was mentioned, that he intended to have her heel turn be much earlier, but Marvel liked her as the crime boss and so she stuck around like that for a while and became the antagonist for other characters and books. I'm curious to know if he had his way when exactly would he have worked that heel turn into his book, during early Worldwide or right after Clone Conspiracy?

If he intended to do it right away then I would think it was probably planned for volume 3.

[WebLurker]

I dunno. I think Thompson only really saw Felicia as a villainous character for Silk in the long run.

Honestly, after the events of that Hawkeye/Deadpool crossover, I think she went way beyond redemption. (Yeah, I know; the core series should overwrite outside appearances, but still...)

[CrimsonEchidna]

I mean, on-paper I think they might have worked with all they had in common, but it didn't seem like something that was really realized on-page.

It also didn't help that she kind of seemed like she was set up as a Black Cat replacement:

- Blonde

- Costumed girlfriend.

- Black and white costume.

- Calls him "Spider."

- Cares more for Spider-Man then Peter Parker (but not by much)

I think Into the Spider-Verse showcased how important Peter Parker is to Spider-Man and the legacy of Spider-Man more then the comic Spider-Verse did.

I think Slott could focus on how important Peter is in abstract form if not when he was actually writing him, but I think he's equally as guilty of downplaying his importance and making him seem redundant.

If he intended to do it right away then I would think it was probably planned for volume 3.

My thought process is is I believe Slott kind of threw in the towel of seriously writing Peter a Love Interest after the backlash that Carlie got was so bad.

Silk was basically written as a joke (and it took Robbie fleshing her out beyond the "sex-crazed pheromone gag), Lian was largely non-existent until she got revealed as a mole, and the stuff with Bobbi just flamed out.

[Frontier]

Honestly, after the events of that Hawkeye/Deadpool crossover, I think she went way beyond redemption. (Yeah, I know; the core series should overwrite outside appearances, but still...)

Queenpin appearances shouldn't count in my opinion. I could count the number of appearances where she was in-character back then on one hand (and with not that many fingers).

My thought process is is I believe Slott kind of threw in the towel of seriously writing Peter a Love Interest after the backlash that Carlie got was so bad.

All things considered Carlie was the one he probably made the most genuine effort with on Peter's side of things.

Silk was basically written as a joke (and it took Robbie fleshing her out beyond the "sex-crazed pheromone gag), Lian was largely non-existent until she got revealed as a mole, and the stuff with Bobbi just flamed out.

Was she an intentional joke though ?

[Kevinroc]

My thought process is is I believe Slott kind of threw in the towel of seriously writing Peter a Love Interest after the backlash that Carlie got was so bad.

Silk was basically written as a joke (and it took Robbie fleshing her out beyond the "sex-crazed pheromone gag), Lian was largely non-existent until she got revealed as a mole, and the stuff with Bobbi just flamed out.

I think Slott's real problem with writing romances for Peter was that he was writing Spider-Man in the shadow of One More Day.

It did not help that he kept bringing Mary Jane back into the fold, but then he refused to pull the trigger on them becoming involved romantically again. (A trigger that you will notice Spencer pulled immediately after he got the book.) How many times did Slott pull a "Peter/MJ get close, but then she turns him away"? 3 times? 4 times? More?

And then Peter wasn't written to actually care about the other relationships that were introduced. (The Spidey/DD crossover by Waid feels especially jarring as Peter is beating himself up over Carlie breaking up with him, while under Slott, he didn't seem like he gave much of a ****.)

(Being really honest, Slott probably should have pulled the MJ trigger after Secret Wars/RYV. MJ wouldn't have been in Bendis' Iron Man, but it's not like that would have been a particularly great loss.)

[Inversed]

I think Slott's real problem with writing romances for Peter was that he was writing Spider-Man in the shadow of One More Day.

It did not help that he kept bringing Mary Jane back into the fold, but then he refused to pull the trigger on them becoming involved romantically again. (A trigger that you will notice Spencer pulled immediately after he got the book.) How many times did Slott pull a "Peter/MJ get close, but then she turns him away"? 3 times? 4 times? More?

And then Peter wasn't written to actually care about the other relationships that were introduced. (The Spidey/DD crossover by Waid feels especially jarring as Peter is beating himself up over Carlie breaking up with him, while under Slott, he didn't seem like he gave much of a ****.)

(Being really honest, Slott probably should have pulled the MJ trigger after Secret Wars/RYV. MJ wouldn't have been in Bendis' Iron Man, but it's not like that would have been a particularly great loss.)

That's why I didn't mind so much when he wrote her out of the book for pretty much all of post-Superior, I'd much rather have him not use a character he's not interested in, than constantly write around or tease something we know isn't gonna go anywhere.

While I really liked Go Down Swinging overall, that opening with them still confuses me because I have no idea what the point of it was. It's not really thematically related, it doesn't pay off by the end, and it's not re-iterating a point about them as a couple, because that gets immediately turned around by Spencer.

Based on his older comments, he didn't want the write them as a couple without them being married because he didn't think it would be interesting if he couldn't go all the way. And I think that is ultimately why he didn't end up writing real compelling relationships for Spider-Man, because there was other things he found more interested, and his desired approach was out of bounds for the most part.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think Slott cares more about Spider-Man as an identity or legacy then he does Peter Parker.

Because when you look at Superior or Spider-Verse...it's more about the idea of Spider-Man and what he represents then it necessarily is about Peter Parker, even if I think that's more the case with Spider-Verse then Superior.

Hence all the spinoff characters that popped up in his run.

Which is pretty tragic/ironic/comedic (if you are into schadenfreude) when you consider that the Spider-Man legacies that have actually caught on weren't created by him. The biggest new Spider-Man character since Venom and Carnage is Miles Morales, created by Bendis over at USM, and he was so big that he actually got transplanted from an AU to 616. Then you have Spider-Gwen created by Jason Latour/Robbi Rodriquez/Rico Renzi which is one of the most visually original comics in years. Take a look at ITSV, which borrowed the title from Spider-Verse and nothing else. Not one Slott character and concept is there in that movie. People liked Liv Octopus way more than they did Superior Ock and basically the scientist-gangster version of the character, which was what Lee-Ditko originally created and which Mantlo and Milgrom and others built on, is finally back and this time she's Kathryn Hahn.

Slott's big legacy so far is the Spider-Man PS4 game which draws a lot of touches from his run, albeit they also borrowed from Bendis and others. Slott's run also influenced the awful and totally forgotten Spider-Man cartoon currently on air, and which also has Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen as main legacy co-leads (i.e. characters he had no say on).

[Zeitgeist]

Don't know why you're being this dramatic. This is an internet forum, everybody's always going to be mad about somebody's opinion somewhere here. People fighting about fictional relationships isn't new. MJ was in the title and OP compared Peter/MJ and Peter/Felicia, so. Lol

Hey, you're new here. You'll come to realise these exact argument happens ad naeseum over and over and over and it gets incredibly tiring. And honestly if people are going to be mad or want to fight, they can keep it to themselves.

Ah, that makes sense.

It's actually horseplop but whatevs

From his posting history, he was a big advocate of the Post-OMD era "moving Peter forward", away from established relationships and status quos. I don't think he's enjoying Peter being back with MJ one bit, or that Peter is struggling without a career or steady employment again, and feels Marvel have caved in to nostalgia

I honestly don't care my dude, if it's not for me it's not for me - I don't start campaigns or rally against writers if things aren't catering to my particular takes. I actually have enjoyed some of Spencer's recent stuff, for what it's worth. What I don't enjoy is what seems to be a surge of a selfish, almost toxic fan mindset. Or maybe it's always been there and it's just more pronounced to me now for some reason. What I'm actually a big advocate of is making room for all kinds of fans and recognising that extends beyond just our singular wants.

[Zeitgeist]

My point was these characters have continued their on-again/off-again with their, for lack of a better term, "main squeeze." Super hero comics are soap operas, and that kind of on-again/off-again are a big part of that soap opera. If that's not really your thing, why are you reading serialized super hero comics?

I think we're basically saying the same thing my dude.

(This is definitely not a healthy fanbase, lol.)

understatement of the year
Then again it's hard to find a healthy fanbase for anything these days, honestly

Maybe if Stan had (co-)created Felicia she'd be a more prominent figure. But he didn't.

The problem there really is that being someone who puts on a costume is really kind of a deal breaker with Spider-Man romantic relationships. The drama comes from the push and pull nature of Peter Parker and Spider-Man's lives. Spidey having a relationship with Black Cat or Mockingbird (or Kitty Pryde over in Ultimate) really kind of throws that dynamic out of whack. (Not that it can't be fun for a little while, of course. But people expecting it to be on par with Peter/MJ are kidding themselves.)

I don't think this Stan knighting thing has as much pull on a character's relevance as you think it does. Venom and Miles don't have his fingerprints on them, after all.
Also that's a good point but I don't see why/how a costumed paramour can't affect the dynamic of the Peter Parker part of the equation. I'd love to see that explored more in depth sometime, something more than a short Mockingbird fling.

[Miles To Go]

I don't see why/how a costumed paramour can't affect the dynamic of the Peter Parker part of the equation. I'd love to see that explored more in depth sometime, something more than a short Mockingbird fling.

It was explored well enough with Ultimate Spider-Man. Bendis showed how night and day that dynamic is and Peter eventually went back to MJ. Back to who it always works best with.

[Zeitgeist]

It was explored well enough with Ultimate Spider-Man. Bendis showed how night and day that dynamic is and Peter eventually went back to MJ. Back to who it always works best with.

Now you're just trolling

Also main continuity, thanks.