Geoff Johns' worst book or idea

[Frontier]

Cassie went from being a nice person to a mean person who pretended to be nice and got a bunch of Titans killed under her watch.

That sounds more like Cassie post-Johns then what I read of her in his actual Titans run.

[SelinaK12]

Does anybody else find that Johns is just really, really terrible at handling romantic relationships? From forcing "destiny" on Kendra Saunders and Carter Hall, to using "One Year Later" to justify taking Rick "Hourman" Tyler and Jesse "Jesse Quick/Liberty Belle" Chambers from having no relationship whatsoever to being married without any build-up, to Superman and Wonder Woman in the New 52, and god knows whatever relationships he handled in-between, I find Geoff Johns utterly incapable of writing a romantic relationship that isn't forced and contrived both in-universe and out, let alone one that happens believably on both characters' parts.

I liked how he wrote billy and stargirl (even though it was brief).

[TheCape]

That sounds more like Cassie post-Johns then what I read of her in his actual Titans run.

Yeah, John's Cassie was just bland and never was a leader under his pen. Now Sean and Henderson, that was another beast.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Heh, then that was quite the defence for someone who gave up on both the comics and the TV show a while back.

Well, I grew up a fan of DC's primary characters, but I no longer have the inclination to follow the books. And thanks to CBR and this forum, I can keep up, for the most part.

The success of the Flash TV show is one thing (I'm guessing it's mostly about a very strong first season and a very likable cast) but let's not overstate the popularity of the Flash comics. It's a series that has done moderately okay on the sales charts

Sure, but your vantage point seems to be - DC hasn't justified bringing Barry back. (And by extension, doing almost exclusively crappy stuff with Wally.)

My counter is they never needed to justify anything; they wanted to tell stories with Barry, so they brought him back. On top of which, the book has been successful for a decade plus. So whether longtime fans like the direction, or (in my case) don't bother to follow it, is really inconsequential in the big picture. It's worked out as DC intended.

Lastly, the fictional characters don't determine what new/cool stories or ideas are implemented. Every great thing Wally or Barry ever did was thought up by a writer or artist or editor. It's up to their successors to do the same now with Barry (or whomever). If they haven't done that, then that's on them, not the fictional characters.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

Well, I grew up a fan of DC's primary characters, but I no longer have the inclination to follow the books. And thanks to CBR and this forum, I can keep up, for the most part.

Sure, but your vantage point seems to be - DC hasn't justified bringing Barry back. (And by extension, doing almost exclusively crappy stuff with Wally.)

My counter is they never needed to justify anything; they wanted to tell stories with Barry, so they brought him back. On top of which, the book has been successful for a decade plus. So whether longtime fans like the direction, or (in my case) don't bother to follow it, is really inconsequential in the big picture. It's worked out as DC intended.

Lastly, the fictional characters don't determine what new/cool stories or ideas are implemented. Every great thing Wally or Barry ever did was thought up by a writer or artist or editor. It's up to their successors to do the same now with Barry (or whomever). If they haven't done that, then that's on them, not the fictional characters.

OK, in reverse order...

Yes, obviously they're fictional and are defined by the creators and editors. Duh. The thing is that Barry was all but rewritten in the original Flash Rebirth mini, which introduced a lot of baggage to Barry and the rest of the Flash family, and creators have been stuck having to work with this problematic new characterization. Further, I've yet to see a modern iteration of Barry where it looks like the creators actually know what to do with him and/ or would just flat out rather be writing Wally. And that includes creators who are apparently huge fans of Barry, like Johns and Willaimson.

Has it worked out like DC intended? I don't believe that Barry's Flash title does any better than Wally's Flash book did and in terms of critical reaction and creating a buzz, it's been fairly underwhelming for years. By all appearances, at best, this iteration of Barry Allen is tolerated rather than embraced by fans. At worst, he is outright disliked.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this thread hasn't been about sales so much as what we see as Geoff's biggest artistic failures. And, by that metric, I think the tone that he set with his Barry Allen in Rebirth was a creative disaster that has absolutely not, in any way, been rectified by later writers - many of whom seem to have even more trouble getting under his skin. The fact that they had to negate the rest of the Flash family and inorganically weld a whole bunch of Wally's attributes and stories onto Barry says everything about just how much of a screw-up his whole return has been.

I remain a much bigger fan of Wally than Barry but I want to read good, modern Barry Allen stories. And to do that, I need to pick up JLA: Year One or New Frontier rather than any of the ten years of Barry Allen solo stories we've had since Rebirth.

[caj]

OK, in reverse order...

Yes, obviously they're fictional and are defined by the creators and editors. Duh. The thing is that Barry was all but rewritten in the original Flash Rebirth mini, which introduced a lot of baggage to Barry and the rest of the Flash family, and creators have been stuck having to work with this problematic new characterization. Further, I've yet to see a modern iteration of Barry where it looks like the creators actually know what to do with him and/ or would just flat out rather be writing Wally. And that includes creators who are apparently huge fans of Barry, like Johns and Willaimson.

Has it worked out like DC intended? I don't believe that Barry's Flash title does any better than Wally's Flash book did and in terms of critical reaction and creating a buzz, it's been fairly underwhelming for years. By all appearances, at best, this iteration of Barry Allen is tolerated rather than embraced by fans. At worst, he is outright disliked.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this thread hasn't been about sales so much as what we see as Geoff's biggest artistic failures. And, by that metric, I think the tone that he set with his Barry Allen in Rebirth was a creative disaster that has absolutely not, in any way, been rectified by later writers - many of whom seem to have even more trouble getting under his skin. The fact that they had to negate the rest of the Flash family and inorganically weld a whole bunch of Wally's attributes and stories onto Barry says everything about just how much of a screw-up his whole return has been.

I remain a much bigger fan of Wally than Barry but I want to read good, modern Barry Allen stories. And to do that, I need to pick up JLA: Year One or New Frontier rather than any of the ten years of Barry Allen solo stories we've had since Rebirth.

COMPLETELY AGREE WITH ALL OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great post.

[Hol]

OK, in reverse order...

Yes, obviously they're fictional and are defined by the creators and editors. Duh. The thing is that Barry was all but rewritten in the original Flash Rebirth mini, which introduced a lot of baggage to Barry and the rest of the Flash family, and creators have been stuck having to work with this problematic new characterization. Further, I've yet to see a modern iteration of Barry where it looks like the creators actually know what to do with him and/ or would just flat out rather be writing Wally. And that includes creators who are apparently huge fans of Barry, like Johns and Willaimson.

Has it worked out like DC intended? I don't believe that Barry's Flash title does any better than Wally's Flash book did and in terms of critical reaction and creating a buzz, it's been fairly underwhelming for years. By all appearances, at best, this iteration of Barry Allen is tolerated rather than embraced by fans. At worst, he is outright disliked.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, this thread hasn't been about sales so much as what we see as Geoff's biggest artistic failures. And, by that metric, I think the tone that he set with his Barry Allen in Rebirth was a creative disaster that has absolutely not, in any way, been rectified by later writers - many of whom seem to have even more trouble getting under his skin. The fact that they had to negate the rest of the Flash family and inorganically weld a whole bunch of Wally's attributes and stories onto Barry says everything about just how much of a screw-up his whole return has been.

I remain a much bigger fan of Wally than Barry but I want to read good, modern Barry Allen stories. And to do that, I need to pick up JLA: Year One or New Frontier rather than any of the ten years of Barry Allen solo stories we've had since Rebirth.

I agree 100%

And the book being a success for 10 years? I do not see that in sales and definitely not in quality. The only good story since his return IMO was Flashpoint. And that wasn't a Flash story. It was a DCU story starring Flash and Batman.

[caj]

I'm in the minority, but for me Doomsday Clock. It's not bad, but it's a fan-fiction who totally betray the original intent of Watchmen. I don't really care, we still have the superior original story, but his writing is too "american" for this kind of story.

Well, now that Doomsday Clock is almost (finally) over, how does everyone feel about it now - is it one of his best, worst, or middle of the road projects?

[Agent Z]

Jason, Wonder Woman's brother.

[Frontier]

Jason, Wonder Woman's brother.

I don't know what the point of that ultimately was when Johns himself didn't do anything with it, and Rucka didn't address it when he came aboard.

To be honest, I wonder if it's something DC Editorial actually wanted.

[Buried Alien]

Killing Kal-L in INFINITE CRISIS, then reviving him as a Black Lantern zombie.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm going with Flashpoint. If it was an elseworlds or stand alone story then I could give it a pass. But with it leading to the new 52 which obliterated all of my favorite characters into limbo it is my pick.

From what I’ve heard, as Johns originally conceived it, it wasn’t meant to be a reboot. Just a Flash-centric event. It was only when Didio got involved that it became a reboot.

[Marvelman]

I like Geoff and I like his work. For me, his best work was his earlier stuff like JSA and Stars and Stripe.

I was unmoved by his Justice League run. Too many splash pages. Not enough character development. I liked it when Shazam joined the league but he was largely wasted. Again, too many splash pages. Not enough character development.

I appreciate that Geoff isn't lazy. He simply has too many commitments to give each project the attention it deserves and it shows in his comic book work over that past 5-10 years.

[Marvelman]

I liked how he wrote billy and stargirl (even though it was brief).

I agree. I thought it was very sweet.

[Marvelman]

his worst ideas:
-New 52 Shazam Origin
-Making courtney marry albert rothstein
-flashpoint
-making billy leave the JSA instead of telling them the truth
-taking away the marvel family powers and making them look like fools everytime they fought the black adam family
-killing damage
-killing courtney brother in new 52

Well, I like a lot of what has been done with Shazam post-flashpoint. As for Billy leaving the JSA, I don't think that was John's decision. DC had plans for the Marvel family in the form of Judd Winick's Trials of Shazam. Personally, I feel Billy would have been better off in the JSA but it was not Geoff's decision.