View Poll Results: How would you restart the Superman movie franchise?

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  • A Man of Steel sequel with Zack Snyder returning

    4 5.48%
  • A Man of Steel sequel with a new director but w/ same cast

    31 42.47%
  • A recast Superman movie loosely in the DCEU

    13 17.81%
  • A full reboot with a new continuity, no connection to the DCEU

    17 23.29%
  • Just have spinoff movies like Supergirl

    2 2.74%
  • Give the entire franchise a rest for the foreseeable future

    3 4.11%
  • Other

    3 4.11%
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  1. #121
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    True, but there are a few mitigating factors to consider:

    1) Captain America: First Avenger grossed $176 million domestic. That's way less than the 2008 Iron Man ($318 million), and even less than Thor ($181 million) which came out a few months before Cap. Captain America didn't really hit his stride until after the Marvel brand became premium after Avengers. Civil War ($408 million) easily surpassed Winter Soldier ($260 million), but Marvel cleverly incorporated their best sub-brand (Avengers) into the movie, essentially making it Avengers 2.5. There's a reason why they didn't lead off with Captain America, because he alone wasn't going to be a character audiences could get behind.

    2) Wonder Woman checked certain boxes that no Superman movie ever could. We comic fans know that Superman was the prototype superhero, but modern day audiences just see him as another hero. The same cannot be said about Wonder Woman. The name "Superman" alone doesn't guarantee you $400 million in box office revenue; you have to do a great job to rake in that cash.

    I really think Superman as a lot more baggage to overcome. Most other heroes have a clean-ish slate. Wonder Woman can kill Ares. Captain America can shoot Nazis. What's the extent to which Superman is "allowed" to do?
    I think Superman can do things all the other heroes can't like stopping planes and punch through an asteroid. I think Superman needs a more entertaining and fun movie when he isn't so somber like in recent decades. Maybe general audiences expect more optimism and confidence in him.

  2. #122
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Here's a problem, though, what can Superman do that is unique?

    We have seen him fly, we've seen his heat vision, we've seen him rescue planes, we've seen him lift an Island into space, we've seen him fight Luthor and Zod, we've seen the Daily Planet and Lois and his Mum.

    But the problem is that now most heroes fly and shoot lasers, and we've seen Iron Man stop planes, and push a nuke into space. We've seen Spider-man on an alien planet fighting a universal threat. We've seen numerous wonderful supporting casts, from Spider-man to Iron man to Captain America whose supporting cast of Falcon and Winter Soldier are so popular they're getting a spin-off.

    I really think that whatever form the next Superman movie takes, it needs to be something radically different to all the other superhero movies out there and especially different to any previous Superman film. I do think that Snyder understood this. Obviously, that didn't work out how we'd have liked but he did at least approach it differently to anything before and to what Marvel is doing.

    We can't have a return to the 'Donner' Superman, Returns tried that and it failed. We can't have another Snyder film, WB would never rehire him and JL was such a flop. We absolutely cannot have another origin.

    I truly believe that Superman now needs to be bigger than Earth, like some kind of universal peacekeeper. Superman needs Darkseid, or at least Brainiac. A huge galactic threat for Superman to defeat and proudly shout 'hey, you needed all the Avengers for this, look how fucking awesome I am!'.

    I would reuse Henry Cavill (because I think he is perfect for Superman) and his supporting cast, reference JL in the same way Aquaman and Shazam did but pick up the threat from Apokolips and go from there. No extended DC world building, no cameos from other Leaguers, just Superman vs the god of evil. And I'd set it mostly in space, between New Genesis & Apokolips.

    Of course, DC are working on a New Gods movie, so this isn't going to happen.

    Have Brainiac approach Earth basically saying choose who lives in the bottle cities and I'll be destroying the rest (this gives Superman's supporting cast including Luthor something to do), then Superman must battle a mind/reality warping Brainiac and ultimately head to Colu for the final showdown.

    Something bigger and brighter and more awe inspiring than anything we've ever seen before.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  3. #123
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I’d be open to some stand alone one-offs. An All Star or Red Son Movie wouldn’t leave much room for sequels but maybe that shouldn’t always be the priority.
    Totally. Sequels should happen organically.

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  4. #124
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I’m a little cautious about going bigger again. I really doubt WB is going to give a Superman movie another 200 million budget. Frankly I think the solution is to go smaller and more manageable and do some character building for Superman. I still think Metallo or Manchester Black would probably be the best rogues for a Cavill sequel, even though I badly want a Brainiac movie. Metallo would also be perfect for a reboot Superman as well. But any movie that tries to have Lex or Zod be the villain is guaranteed to flop, you can’t go back to that well right away. Take some lessons from MCU Spidey: Do new villains.

  5. #125
    Incredible Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    They should go one last time with Cavill, kind of like they are doing one last Daniel Craig Bond movie.
    The perfect send off would be King's Up in the Sky, not some big world ending villain, just Superman trying to rescue a little girl. But on space. They could even use some of Peter Quill backstory and make the girl's father some type of villain.

  6. #126
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Here's a problem, though, what can Superman do that is unique?

    We have seen him fly, we've seen his heat vision, we've seen him rescue planes, we've seen him lift an Island into space, we've seen him fight Luthor and Zod, we've seen the Daily Planet and Lois and his Mum.

    But the problem is that now most heroes fly and shoot lasers, and we've seen Iron Man stop planes, and push a nuke into space. We've seen Spider-man on an alien planet fighting a universal threat. We've seen numerous wonderful supporting casts, from Spider-man to Iron man to Captain America whose supporting cast of Falcon and Winter Soldier are so popular they're getting a spin-off.
    Superman can do anything... everything, basically. I would be sure that that holds more creative opportunity than just doing one thing, or more accurately, a version of a thing that was inspired by what he does in the first place.

    And that Disney series you mention, I think Disney is really just stoked on both hitting with new Marvel and using the actual movie actors in the process over it really being about particular characters being popular. Wandavision is the same deal, I can't say those two are very popular.
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  7. #127
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I’m a little cautious about going bigger again. I really doubt WB is going to give a Superman movie another 200 million budget.
    I think you're both right, actually.

    How many films have we seen with a threat between "city-wide" and "global" in the last twenty years? How many evil scientist businessmen have threatened to rip our way of life out from under us all, how many potentially extinction-level events?

    I think you could take Superman either over that and put him in some serious universe/multiverse level stories (and Marvel is getting into that kind of stuff so you better jump right for the Source Wall and go full-on crazy), or bring him way down to the Golden Age street level. Both are spaces we don't see nearly as often in super-cinema. Both are places where Superman has been successful before, and with the right story could be successful now. Both have pretty amazing stories to draw inspiration from. I mean, for real, just do a live-action version of Superman & The Mechanical Monsters, maybe throw Ultra-Humanite in as the Big Bad, and you've got a hit on your hands for virtually no budget at all. And a weird high concept "big" story like All-Star? Who doesn't want to see Superman fight a evil sun? You ever see an Avenger fight the sun and punch it in the face?

    But honestly? I don't think the trick is doing something unique and new. I think the trick is doing it well. Seriously, how many differences are there between Iron Man 1 and Ant-Man 1? Evil, bald corporate scientist who steals the hero's tech and makes a scarier version of it. Wise-cracking lead character and a female "guy in the chair" with romantic chemistry. The list goes on. Yet Ant-Man, and all the other films that have followed the MCU formula (and not all do of course) don't seem to have suffered much for their lack of real originality. Make a good, quality Superman movie, and people will see it.

    But if you really need Clark to do something no one else is, he already has. He's far more powerful than anyone else leading a movie. It took six Avengers and a whole army of aliens to wreck one of New York's neighborhoods. But Clark and Zod tore Metropolis up just as much, all by themselves. We've seen bigger strength feats from MoS Superman than we've gotten from anyone at Marvel except, arguably, Captain Marvel.

    If that's not enough, well, in the source material Clark's got an alien fortress full of toys from across time and space, a dimensional prison, a super powered dog.....and if you need original visuals, he's got a dozen powers he can use in conjunction in ways that we have never seen on film. You want original? Just script a scene where Clark actually fights to his potential, using everything he's got access to all at once, instead of trying them one at a time. You do that right, and Clark's going to look like a reality warper more than he's gonna look like Thor.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-05-2019 at 09:05 PM.
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  8. #128
    Astonishing Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think you're both right, actually.

    How many films have we seen with a threat between "city-wide" and "global" in the last twenty years? How many evil scientist businessmen have threatened to rip our way of life out from under us all, how many potentially extinction-level events?

    I think you could take Superman either over that and put him in some serious universe/multiverse level stories (and Marvel is getting into that kind of stuff so you better jump right for the Source Wall and go full-on crazy), or bring him way down to the Golden Age street level. Both are spaces we don't see nearly as often in super-cinema. Both are places where Superman has been successful before, and with the right story could be successful now. Both have pretty amazing stories to draw inspiration from. I mean, for real, just do a live-action version of Superman & The Mechanical Monsters, maybe throw Ultra-Humanite in as the Big Bad, and you've got a hit on your hands for virtually no budget at all. And a weird high concept "big" story like All-Star? Who doesn't want to see Superman fight a evil sun? You ever see an Avenger fight the sun and punch it in the face?

    But honestly? I don't think the trick is doing something unique and new. I think the trick is doing it well. Seriously, how many differences are there between Iron Man 1 and Ant-Man 1? Evil, bald corporate scientist who steals the hero's tech and makes a scarier version of it. Wise-cracking lead character and a female "guy in the chair" with romantic chemistry. The list goes on. Yet Ant-Man, and all the other films that have followed the MCU formula (and not all do of course) don't seem to have suffered much for their lack of real originality. Make a good, quality Superman movie, and people will see it.

    But if you really need Clark to do something no one else is, he already has. He's far more powerful than anyone else leading a movie. It took six Avengers and a whole army of aliens to wreck one of New York's neighborhoods. But Clark and Zod tore Metropolis up just as much, all by themselves. We've seen bigger strength feats from MoS Superman than we've gotten from anyone at Marvel except, arguably, Captain Marvel.

    If that's not enough, well, in the source material Clark's got an alien fortress full of toys from across time and space, a dimensional prison, a super powered dog.....and if you need original visuals, he's got a dozen powers he can use in conjunction in ways that we have never seen on film. You want original? Just script a scene where Clark actually fights to his potential, using everything he's got access to all at once, instead of trying them one at a time. You do that right, and Clark's going to look like a reality warper more than he's gonna look like Thor.
    THIS. So much. I can't add much really, just make it more entertaining and inspirational. There are many superheroes, but noone is like Superman. He is loved not just for his powers, but more for his way of doing things. He is the guy who cares about the little things like saving your cat. That makes him adorable. Yes, he saves the whole world in epic ways, but he is so much more. And he also fights with his writing skills as a reporter. Show it. And very important, continue to develop his relationship with Lois in meaningful ways. And with the world. Show that humanity can trust him.

    Stop over thinking Superman and try to make him more conflicted than he needs. Audiences have some expectations when it comes to Superman, and one of those is joy and inspirational stuff. Scenes like First Flight and saving the plane in Returns. We still haven't seen how Superman inspires others to be the best they can be and to join him in the sun. JL tried, but it was too rushed and messy. Do it much better. Reminds us why Superman is an awesome character that children want to imitate when they are playing and wearing their capes. Show us the hero and the good and intelligent man who fights for justice and protects those that need help. But have some fun while doing it. Aquaman did it so well. He was heroic but was also funny and charming. Clark did that first long ago. He was fun to watch and endearing too.

    I still haven't seen this compassionate Superman on film. I need this. And a new and exciting super villain that is well written and acted. I also need to see new places and the Fortress back. I love that place, but not a Donner copy. Something more interesting and showy.

    Last edited by stargazer01; 12-06-2019 at 02:47 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godzilla2099 View Post
    Easily a Man of Steel Sequel

    Man of Steel was underrated. It deserves another movie.
    Yeah, I can see that being for the best...if Snyder actually had a chance to do the MoS sequel he had wanted to do.

  10. #130
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Here's a problem, though, what can Superman do that is unique?

    We have seen him fly, we've seen his heat vision, we've seen him rescue planes, we've seen him lift an Island into space, we've seen him fight Luthor and Zod, we've seen the Daily Planet and Lois and his Mum.

    But the problem is that now most heroes fly and shoot lasers, and we've seen Iron Man stop planes, and push a nuke into space. We've seen Spider-man on an alien planet fighting a universal threat. We've seen numerous wonderful supporting casts, from Spider-man to Iron man to Captain America whose supporting cast of Falcon and Winter Soldier are so popular they're getting a spin-off.

    I really think that whatever form the next Superman movie takes, it needs to be something radically different to all the other superhero movies out there and especially different to any previous Superman film. I do think that Snyder understood this. Obviously, that didn't work out how we'd have liked but he did at least approach it differently to anything before and to what Marvel is doing.

    We can't have a return to the 'Donner' Superman, Returns tried that and it failed. We can't have another Snyder film, WB would never rehire him and JL was such a flop. We absolutely cannot have another origin.

    I truly believe that Superman now needs to be bigger than Earth, like some kind of universal peacekeeper. Superman needs Darkseid, or at least Brainiac. A huge galactic threat for Superman to defeat and proudly shout 'hey, you needed all the Avengers for this, look how fucking awesome I am!'.

    I would reuse Henry Cavill (because I think he is perfect for Superman) and his supporting cast, reference JL in the same way Aquaman and Shazam did but pick up the threat from Apokolips and go from there. No extended DC world building, no cameos from other Leaguers, just Superman vs the god of evil. And I'd set it mostly in space, between New Genesis & Apokolips.

    Of course, DC are working on a New Gods movie, so this isn't going to happen.

    Have Brainiac approach Earth basically saying choose who lives in the bottle cities and I'll be destroying the rest (this gives Superman's supporting cast including Luthor something to do), then Superman must battle a mind/reality warping Brainiac and ultimately head to Colu for the final showdown.

    Something bigger and brighter and more awe inspiring than anything we've ever seen before.
    More powerful doesn’t equal more interesting. We live in a time where special effects and spectacle are common place. Just upping the scale won’t do very much. They need to focus on what makes Superman iconic. They also need to focus on other parts of his mythos other then Luthor and Zod. They also need to get the tone right. Stop with the morose somber sad Superman. In short they just need to have faith in the character rather then trying to morph it into something it really isn’t.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 12-06-2019 at 05:30 PM.

  11. #131
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    The main DC movie characters are unaging like Aquaman and Diana.

    I’d just say “Justice League happened ten years ago and Superman had a bright, full career” and bring back Cavill for a movie where his ten year old kid finds out he’s Superman.

    The theme music is the Man of Steel theme sped up about 50 times with a full orchestra and Harry Potterized with whimsical segments and more complete phrasing like a Danny Elfman version. So instead of “da da.... da da... da da” it becomes more “da da dundundun da da dundundun da da dunDUNdunDUN”. I always felt like the MOS and Nolan Batfilm themes felt like half a melody.

    Well, now we get the whole melody. Since we last saw him, he got a fortress and Kandor and 50 odd enemies and 10 kinds of Kryptonite and he pals around with Steel and Jimmy Olsen and he’s had like 500 issues worth of adventures and Jon just comes into that all as a novice. And it’s Harry Potter. Kid enters developed world with mythology and rules that are new to him.

  12. #132
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    A new WW84 trailer dropped today (I can already see the trash can joke becoming a meme). In it Steve Trevor comes back. Which suggests there's some sort of time travel thing going on here. I wonder if this will lead to that soft reboot we've been hearing so much about. Where they phase out the things people hated and keep the things people loved. So we get to keep Aquaman and the WW movies but JL and the Cavill Superman will be replaced.
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  13. #133
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    A new WW84 trailer dropped today (I can already see the trash can joke becoming a meme). In it Steve Trevor comes back. Which suggests there's some sort of time travel thing going on here. I wonder if this will lead to that soft reboot we've been hearing so much about. Where they phase out the things people hated and keep the things people loved. So we get to keep Aquaman and the WW movies but JL and the Cavill Superman will be replaced.
    It won’t. We’ve already had the basic outline of the plot for a while now. WB/DC are not going to be doing continuity clean up via some kind of explicit reboot. They’re just ignoring the Snyder films.

  14. #134
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't think they need any narrative soft reboot method. Wonder Woman 3 could very well move into the present day. All that then has to do is completely ignore anything having to do with Bvs/JL. If it just pretends those things never happened to Diana, there's your retcon and that's the end of it, without any actual reason needed to be given. No Batfleck, no MOS Superman. Maybe no Miller-Flash depending on if that solo project dies or not.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-08-2019 at 08:55 PM.
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  15. #135
    Astonishing Member Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Here's a problem, though, what can Superman do that is unique?

    We have seen him fly, we've seen his heat vision, we've seen him rescue planes, we've seen him lift an Island into space, we've seen him fight Luthor and Zod, we've seen the Daily Planet and Lois and his Mum.

    But the problem is that now most heroes fly and shoot lasers, and we've seen Iron Man stop planes, and push a nuke into space. We've seen Spider-man on an alien planet fighting a universal threat. We've seen numerous wonderful supporting casts, from Spider-man to Iron man to Captain America whose supporting cast of Falcon and Winter Soldier are so popular they're getting a spin-off.

    I really think that whatever form the next Superman movie takes, it needs to be something radically different to all the other superhero movies out there and especially different to any previous Superman film. I do think that Snyder understood this. Obviously, that didn't work out how we'd have liked but he did at least approach it differently to anything before and to what Marvel is doing.

    We can't have a return to the 'Donner' Superman, Returns tried that and it failed. We can't have another Snyder film, WB would never rehire him and JL was such a flop. We absolutely cannot have another origin.

    I truly believe that Superman now needs to be bigger than Earth, like some kind of universal peacekeeper. Superman needs Darkseid, or at least Brainiac. A huge galactic threat for Superman to defeat and proudly shout 'hey, you needed all the Avengers for this, look how fucking awesome I am!'.

    I would reuse Henry Cavill (because I think he is perfect for Superman) and his supporting cast, reference JL in the same way Aquaman and Shazam did but pick up the threat from Apokolips and go from there. No extended DC world building, no cameos from other Leaguers, just Superman vs the god of evil. And I'd set it mostly in space, between New Genesis & Apokolips.

    Of course, DC are working on a New Gods movie, so this isn't going to happen.

    Have Brainiac approach Earth basically saying choose who lives in the bottle cities and I'll be destroying the rest (this gives Superman's supporting cast including Luthor something to do), then Superman must battle a mind/reality warping Brainiac and ultimately head to Colu for the final showdown.

    Something bigger and brighter and more awe inspiring than anything we've ever seen before.
    While I agree that going back to the Donner Superman is not the answer, I will reiterate that it is not because of SR which only superficially and briefly rehashed the Donner movie but with a drastically different dramatic atmosphere. The few parts that truly recreated the Donner movie hit big with the audience. But most of it mimicked the Donner movie but with a very dark undertone.

    we don't need Doofus Clark but most of the audience expects something hopeful from Superman.
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