Revamp a Villain

[Michael Watkins]

Your take makes a lot of sense, especially when it comes to fear of mutants among the general public being driven by corporate and political interests otherwise perceived to be in danger by them. As for superhumans empowered by "freak accidents" turning out to be latent mutants or Inhumans that needed external stimuli to activate their powers, would that include the likes of Spider-Man, Daredevil, and the Hulk, since radiation was the catalyst for their abilities?

I would say that it wasn’t an accident that they survived their respective augmentation processes. Peter was special and became even more special when a science experiment (in my telling) bit him. The explosion that altered Banner unleashed what I would term as cosmic forces (this would include non-magic energy from other dimensions). It just so happened that Banner was able to handle it because of his genetics. But, to clarify, if your latent genes are activated you’ve become something else; not human, mutant, or inhuman (which, according to their religious beliefs, only happens through the terrigenesis ceremony). The latent x-gene doesn’t express itself because it’s misshapen. So Magneto isn’t likely to recruit a latent mutant who has been jumpstarted. Sentinels won’t recognize them either. A good example of one would be Hellcat’s ex, Mad Dog. He had his xgene activated and has steadily become more animalistic over time. Because it was done unnaturally. Problems like these are common with “lab mutants.” Angar and Nitro are both addicted to pain meds because of their mutations. Hydro-Man is unable to fully go solid. Etc

[Sutekh]

Your take makes a lot of sense, especially when it comes to fear of mutants among the general public being driven by corporate and political interests otherwise perceived to be in danger by them. As for superhumans empowered by "freak accidents" turning out to be latent mutants or Inhumans that needed external stimuli to activate their powers, would that include the likes of Spider-Man, Daredevil, and the Hulk, since radiation was the catalyst for their abilities?

That seemed to be the idea in the old 'Days of Future Past,' that humanity was divided up into full-on mutants, 'latents,' who carried the gene, but needed it to be triggered in some way (Fantastic Four-cosmic rays, Hulk-gamma rays, Spider-Man-radioactive spider-bite, Daredevil-toxic waste, Inhumans-terrigen gas, Captain America-super-soldier serum, etc.), and 'pure' humans, who, if exposed to any of that, probably got radiation sickness and crapped out their intestines and died over the next three days...

Since the X-gene came from Celestial tinkering with humanity back when cro magnons were still a thing, the fact that there are still 'pure' strain humans without the potential for mutation around is kinda impressive.

And many, many comics have utterly ignored this idea, that *some* people can't get powers, as stuff like Spider-Island has assumed that *anyone* can get Spider-powers, or Diablo once turned an entire town into Hulks, nobody has ever 'failed and died' when exposed to cosmic rays (we never here about the fifth person who went up with Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben, or the Red Ghost's failed assistant, or the one's who didn't become U-Foes, or all the people that didn't get Wonder Man powers from but turned into smoking ashes when Baron Zemo tried to use ionic energy on them or whatever in an attempt to empower them).

(A great source of origin stories for new characters, by the way. Who were all the *other* people experimented on in the prison where Luke Cage got his powers? And were some *less* successful, perhaps disfigured or turned into monsters? Perhaps augmented differently, where Cage got steel-hard skin, another got bones that could soften and allow him to deform his body and slip into anywhere, and another got silvery-nerves that allow him to move and react lightning-fast.)

And there's still a ton of *other* options for super-powers out there, like magic and the supernatural, ranging from Iron Fist to Ghost Rider to Dr. Strange to Helstrom, etc.

[Huntsman Spider]

I would say that it wasn’t an accident that they survived their respective augmentation processes. Peter was special and became even more special when a science experiment (in my telling) bit him. The explosion that altered Banner unleashed what I would term as cosmic forces (this would include non-magic energy from other dimensions). It just so happened that Banner was able to handle it because of his genetics. But, to clarify, if your latent genes are activated you’ve become something else; not human, mutant, or inhuman (which, according to their religious beliefs, only happens through the terrigenesis ceremony). The latent x-gene doesn’t express itself because it’s misshapen. So Magneto isn’t likely to recruit a latent mutant who has been jumpstarted. Sentinels won’t recognize them either. A good example of one would be Hellcat’s ex, Mad Dog. He had his xgene activated and has steadily become more animalistic over time. Because it was done unnaturally. Problems like these are common with “lab mutants.” Angar and Nitro are both addicted to pain meds because of their mutations. Hydro-Man is unable to fully go solid. Etc

Thanks for the clarification there.

That seemed to be the idea in the old 'Days of Future Past,' that humanity was divided up into full-on mutants, 'latents,' who carried the gene, but needed it to be triggered in some way (Fantastic Four-cosmic rays, Hulk-gamma rays, Spider-Man-radioactive spider-bite, Daredevil-toxic waste, Inhumans-terrigen gas, Captain America-super-soldier serum, etc.), and 'pure' humans, who, if exposed to any of that, probably got radiation sickness and crapped out their intestines and died over the next three days...

Since the X-gene came from Celestial tinkering with humanity back when cro magnons were still a thing, the fact that there are still 'pure' strain humans without the potential for mutation around is kinda impressive.

And many, many comics have utterly ignored this idea, that *some* people can't get powers, as stuff like Spider-Island has assumed that *anyone* can get Spider-powers, or Diablo once turned an entire town into Hulks, nobody has ever 'failed and died' when exposed to cosmic rays (we never here about the fifth person who went up with Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben, or the Red Ghost's failed assistant, or the one's who didn't become U-Foes, or all the people that didn't get Wonder Man powers from but turned into smoking ashes when Baron Zemo tried to use ionic energy on them or whatever in an attempt to empower them).

(A great source of origin stories for new characters, by the way. Who were all the *other* people experimented on in the prison where Luke Cage got his powers? And were some *less* successful, perhaps disfigured or turned into monsters? Perhaps augmented differently, where Cage got steel-hard skin, another got bones that could soften and allow him to deform his body and slip into anywhere, and another got silvery-nerves that allow him to move and react lightning-fast.)

And there's still a ton of *other* options for super-powers out there, like magic and the supernatural, ranging from Iron Fist to Ghost Rider to Dr. Strange to Helstrom, etc.

I like your ideas, especially the one with the experimentation that gave Luke Cage his steel-hard skin somehow granting another subject super-speed and super-reflexes.

[Michael Watkins]

That seemed to be the idea in the old 'Days of Future Past,' that humanity was divided up into full-on mutants, 'latents,' who carried the gene, but needed it to be triggered in some way (Fantastic Four-cosmic rays, Hulk-gamma rays, Spider-Man-radioactive spider-bite, Daredevil-toxic waste, Inhumans-terrigen gas, Captain America-super-soldier serum, etc.), and 'pure' humans, who, if exposed to any of that, probably got radiation sickness and crapped out their intestines and died over the next three days...

Since the X-gene came from Celestial tinkering with humanity back when cro magnons were still a thing, the fact that there are still 'pure' strain humans without the potential for mutation around is kinda impressive.

And many, many comics have utterly ignored this idea, that *some* people can't get powers, as stuff like Spider-Island has assumed that *anyone* can get Spider-powers, or Diablo once turned an entire town into Hulks, nobody has ever 'failed and died' when exposed to cosmic rays (we never here about the fifth person who went up with Reed, Sue, Johnny and Ben, or the Red Ghost's failed assistant, or the one's who didn't become U-Foes, or all the people that didn't get Wonder Man powers from but turned into smoking ashes when Baron Zemo tried to use ionic energy on them or whatever in an attempt to empower them).

(A great source of origin stories for new characters, by the way. Who were all the *other* people experimented on in the prison where Luke Cage got his powers? And were some *less* successful, perhaps disfigured or turned into monsters? Perhaps augmented differently, where Cage got steel-hard skin, another got bones that could soften and allow him to deform his body and slip into anywhere, and another got silvery-nerves that allow him to move and react lightning-fast.)

And there's still a ton of *other* options for super-powers out there, like magic and the supernatural, ranging from Iron Fist to Ghost Rider to Dr. Strange to Helstrom, etc.

You hit upon a pet peeve of mine and the impetus for that particular rewrite. Marvel doesn’t seem to value uniqueness. Everyone shouldn’t be able to become the Hulk or Spider-man. I don’t even think that Pym particles should be all purpose on living beings. Fraction went through the trouble of giving Scott and Cassie Lang a genetic advantage when it came to utilizing the particles. And, maybe for movie synergy, whathisface decided that Scott not only needs to go to a Pym particle store but needs some never before seen character (who ended up being the Tinkerer’s robot) to repair his helmet. Quickest way to kill a character is make so anyone can be them. I’m for creating as many hurdles to gaining super powers as possible. You want to train under Stick or wear a powersuit, fine. But actual changes to the body that aren’t debilitating should be rare or so dangerous(or expensive) that the cost is too steep for most.

[Huntsman Spider]

You hit upon a pet peeve of mine and the impetus for that particular rewrite. Marvel doesn’t seem to value uniqueness. Everyone shouldn’t be able to become the Hulk or Spider-man. I don’t even think that Pym particles should be all purpose on living beings. Fraction went through the trouble of giving Scott and Cassie Lang a genetic advantage when it came to utilizing the particles. And, maybe for movie synergy, whathisface decided that Scott not only needs to go to a Pym particle store but needs some never before seen character (who ended up being the Tinkerer’s robot) to repair his helmet. Quickest way to kill a character is make so anyone can be them. I’m for creating as many hurdles to gaining super powers as possible. You want to train under Stick or wear a powersuit, fine. But actual changes to the body that aren’t debilitating should be rare or so dangerous(or expensive) that the cost is too steep for most.

That makes sense, at least in the context of a superhero universe. The only problem I see with that is the transhumanist ethos, which idealizes the idea of becoming superhuman (or even posthuman) through scientific and technological ingenuity, would assert that anyone who wants to modify their own bodies should be able to do so and trying to restrict that would just be a kind of elitism. At least, that's my understanding of it, though there is a lot of dramatic potential in the idea of superhumans as just another form of elite, lording their superior (physical and/or mental) abilities in the same way traditional elites lord their wealth and position over the (rest of the) human populace.

[Michael Watkins]

That makes sense, at least in the context of a superhero universe. The only problem I see with that is the transhumanist ethos, which idealizes the idea of becoming superhuman (or even posthuman) through scientific and technological ingenuity, would assert that anyone who wants to modify their own bodies should be able to do so and trying to restrict that would just be a kind of elitism. At least, that's my understanding of it, though there is a lot of dramatic potential in the idea of superhumans as just another form of elite, lording their superior (physical and/or mental) abilities in the same way traditional elites lord their wealth and position over the (rest of the) human populace.

They are elite. But some more than others. It really comes down to how effective an individual is with their powers. Personal branding is also a factor. Using Ant-Man as an example, his significant feats have not made him one of the elites. So it’s even more of a drawback to have some artificial cap placed on his abilities. Meanwhile, some characters who don’t have powers can seemingly never lose and are considered elite simply because the writers have deemed it so.

[Huntsman Spider]

They are elite. But some more than others. It really comes down to how effective an individual is with their powers. Personal branding is also a factor. Using Ant-Man as an example, his significant feats have not made him one of the elites. So it’s even more of a drawback to have some artificial cap placed on his abilities. Meanwhile, some characters who don’t have powers can seemingly never lose and are considered elite simply because the writers have deemed it so.

Good point, especially on the last sentence, and also, "But some more than others." Because even within and among elites, there are stratifications, which a lot of those people find out the hard way if they're not already (painfully) aware of it. Come to think of it, wasn't that a huge part of what caused the original Ant-Man's breakdown, that for all his significant feats and accomplishments, he still wasn't considered on the same level as Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor?

[Michael Watkins]

Good point, especially on the last sentence, and also, "But some more than others." Because even within and among elites, there are stratifications, which a lot of those people find out the hard way if they're not already (painfully) aware of it. Come to think of it, wasn't that a huge part of what caused the original Ant-Man's breakdown, that for all his significant feats and accomplishments, he still wasn't considered on the same level as Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor?

That was mostly in his head. He let Stark’s alpha male image and brilliance get to him. Keep in mind that hank and Jan had a fan club in their own stories.

[Michael Watkins]

JUGGERNAUT

He ends up in the same place. But I have a few alterations in mind. Still Charles half brother. Still a bully. Still a soldier. This time, he continues as a soldier but for a new agency headed up by General Stryker (he doesn't find devote himself to the church until later in life). They are very much like the organization that appeared in the second X-Men movie. Cain has developed a real hatred (actually envy) of mutants, by this point. What better way to get back at his step brother? So he starts out as just a recurring headache for the X-Men as a hired gun. But he has the showdown he wanted with Chuck. It results in him having temporary amnesia. Stryker's operation is shut down hard by the CSA. At some point, the slowly recovering Marko tracks down Black Tom Cassidy, a mutant arms merchant and all purpose smuggler who Stryker's organization had dealt with before (he'd sell out other mutants for a get out of jail free card). Cain is initially just looking for weaponry. Tom plays on his renewed hatred of the X-Men and let's him in on a special smuggling operation. Cain is his guide through a middle eastern territory he was familiar with from his time in the army. That's where the cyttorak gem senses Cain and calls to him. The rest is history. I wanted to expand his history with the team a bit. He resented them for their genetic advantages. And he was a threat prior to becoming an unstoppable rage monster. Cyttorak makes sure that Cain never gets past his grudge with Charles and his general need to prove himself stronger than other people. It's a lot like the venom symbiote in that way.

[Huntsman Spider]

JUGGERNAUT

He ends up in the same place. But I have a few alterations in mind. Still Charles half brother. Still a bully. Still a soldier. This time, he continues as a soldier but for a new agency headed up by General Stryker (he doesn't find devote himself to the church until later in life). They are very much like the organization that appeared in the second X-Men movie. Cain has developed a real hatred (actually envy) of mutants, by this point. What better way to get back at his step brother? So he starts out as just a recurring headache for the X-Men as a hired gun. But he has the showdown he wanted with Chuck. It results in him having temporary amnesia. Stryker's operation is shut down hard by the CSA. At some point, the slowly recovering Marko tracks down Black Tom Cassidy, a mutant arms merchant and all purpose smuggler who Stryker's organization had dealt with before (he'd sell out other mutants for a get out of jail free card). Cain is initially just looking for weaponry. Tom plays on his renewed hatred of the X-Men and let's him in on a special smuggling operation. Cain is his guide through a middle eastern territory he was familiar with from his time in the army. That's where the cyttorak gem senses Cain and calls to him. The rest is history. I wanted to expand his history with the team a bit. He resented them for their genetic advantages. And he was a threat prior to becoming an unstoppable rage monster. Cyttorak makes sure that Cain never gets past his grudge with Charles and his general need to prove himself stronger than other people. It's a lot like the venom symbiote in that way.

That's a very good take on Juggernaut, and thanks for the clarification on my earlier post. As for the whole "unstoppable rage monster" thing, I think Juggernaut would be worse than the Hulk in a way, as Hulk is mostly a force of nature unto himself, whereas Juggernaut is more deliberate in who and what he targets. Also, unlike the idea of Banner subconsciously holding Hulk back, Juggernaut has Cyttorak urging him on and amplifying every dark thought, impulse, and desire he's ever had.

[Michael Watkins]

That's a very good take on Juggernaut, and thanks for the clarification on my earlier post. As for the whole "unstoppable rage monster" thing, I think Juggernaut would be worse than the Hulk in a way, as Hulk is mostly a force of nature unto himself, whereas Juggernaut is more deliberate in who and what he targets. Also, unlike the idea of Banner subconsciously holding Hulk back, Juggernaut has Cyttorak urging him on and amplifying every dark thought, impulse, and desire he's ever had.

Exactly. It came up in the thunderbolts book. But Cain can’t stay still for long. Cyttorak is insatiable and basically replaces the host’s id. Cain is far too weak willed to fight it. And there’s no transition to a calmer form like Banner. Then factor in Black Tom as his jimminy cricket...destroying his environment is morning coffee for Cain. He stays still too long and the gem starts rolling footage of the beatings he received from his father.

[Huntsman Spider]

Exactly. It came up in the thunderbolts book. But Cain can’t stay still for long. Cyttorak is insatiable and basically replaces the host’s id. Cain is far too weak willed to fight it. And there’s no transition to a calmer form like Banner. Then factor in Black Tom as his jimminy cricket...destroying his environment is morning coffee for Cain. He stays still too long and the gem starts rolling footage of the beatings he received from his father.

Wow, sounds almost like if he doesn't go smashing and destroying things for long enough, Cyttorak psychologically tortures him into doing it. In that context, I'd kind of feel sorry for him.

[Michael Watkins]

Wow, sounds almost like if he doesn't go smashing and destroying things for long enough, Cyttorak psychologically tortures him into doing it. In that context, I'd kind of feel sorry for him.

I think that most villains except the Red Skull are better off having a sympathetic element to their story.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think that most villains except the Red Skull are better off having a sympathetic element to their story.

Yeah, true, or at least an element rooted in human drives and desires that we can all recognize and relate to, even if we wouldn't necessarily condone the actions taken in pursuit of fulfilling those drives and desires.

[Michael Watkins]

The Sinister Six

This won’t be much of a revamp because, individually, they are near perfect creations. But I did the Syndicate. Seems fair to differentiate the two groups.

The Syndicate is a stickup or heist crew. The Sinister Six are a cabal of celebrity villains. You need a rep and an entourage before you get to be one of the Six. And each of think that they are too good to align with the other five. Lot of clashing egos. Sandman is probably the most down to Earth. He was a low level hood long before the radiation treatment. But even he would have underlings. They rarely operate as a team. Their m.o. is to schedule individual jobs around New York roughly at the same time, to push Spider-man or whoever else to their limits. What works to peter’s favor is that they all want credit for taking him out. They see it as their ticket to rule the Six. Kraven kind of goes out as the G.O.A.T. But the others would say that he cheated.

Doctor Octopus

Vulture

Electro

Mysterio

Kraven the Hunter

The Sandman