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  1. #136
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    The in-canon answer is based on Marvel decisions that haven't been made yet.

    Either answer makes sense.
    Okay, I'm sorry but no. Neither answer makes sense. That is being willfully blind/ignorant to 20 plus years of story beats being wiped away. It makes no sense for them to spend all that time as a "common law couple" to go through all of that and not once think about marriage. It's narratively, and realistically, false.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Okay, I'm sorry but no. Neither answer makes sense. That is being willfully blind/ignorant to 20 plus years of story beats being wiped away. It makes no sense for them to spend all that time as a "common law couple" to go through all of that and not once think about marriage. It's narratively, and realistically, false.
    Also "the only reason why I would want to get married is so I could have kids and I would never want to bring a kid into this life so we'll stay together just not get married" is a reallllllly dumb excuse.

  3. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Also "the only reason why I would want to get married is so I could have kids and I would never want to bring a kid into this life so we'll stay together just not get married" is a reallllllly dumb excuse.
    Exactly! It doesn't hold up.

  4. #139
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    it’s crap with a lot of crappy holes...but is it particularly more crap than most reality altering events? they all seem to require generous hand waving
    troo fan or death

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    it’s crap with a lot of crappy holes...but is it particularly more crap than most reality altering events? they all seem to require generous hand waving
    Right...but why do you need a reality altering event in a Spider-Man comic??? I think that's what messed people up. You didn't need it. It was entirely unnecessary.

  6. #141
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The question gets at the heart of the argument.

    Either everything happened as depicted except they weren't married, or it didn't.

    There are no ifs, ands, or buts here. Did the pregnancy happen or not?
    Even without One More Day there are Spider-man stories and subplots that "didn't happen," or "did happen but we will never mention them again ever." OMD didn't change how that worked.

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    it’s crap with a lot of crappy holes...but is it particularly more crap than most reality altering events? they all seem to require generous hand waving
    See here's the thing. Until the 90's Clone Saga, Spider-Man in 616 was a title of great integrity. Death meant Death. Status-quo changes lasted and stuck. Consequences had impact. There was no periodic attempt to say "the last 20 years didn't happen". The 90s Clone Saga destroyed that but at the very least it failed in its attempt. So even though it tried to do this horrible retcon and stunt, its' forgivable because of its incompetence even if in story terms it isn't. The aftermath of the Clone Saga continued after that in EIC Harras' tenure and the titles didn't recover until JMS came along. In the case of OMD it went ahead with that retcon and in the process it created this terrible precedent and loss of trust while also damaging the core integrity of Spider-Man titles beyond repair.

    We tend to forget this, but the constant retcons and revolving door deaths of comics is still a relatively recent thing. That it has become normalized and even acceptable is unfortunate. In the case of Spider-Man his title held out against that trend longer than others did. The point is it isn't normal or expected from Spider-Man nor should it be treated that way.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Not a heck of a lot. The stillbirth wasn't mentioned that often, and it wasn't a particularly remarkable era of the title.
    So you admit, tacitly, that the quality of a story has a factor in its legitimacy. You expect the clone saga and the entire pregnancy and "baby May" thing to be downplayed based on the weak quality of that era and yet expect critiques of OMD based on its lack of quality as being irrelevant to its legitimacy.

  9. #144
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Okay, I'm sorry but no. Neither answer makes sense. That is being willfully blind/ignorant to 20 plus years of story beats being wiped away. It makes no sense for them to spend all that time as a "common law couple" to go through all of that and not once think about marriage. It's narratively, and realistically, false.
    They might think about marriage, especially when Peter was retired as Spider-Man and they were expecting their first kid. But then the Green Goblin poisoned MJ so that she would lose her baby.

    If you liked that plot point, it could still be part of the character's background.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  10. #145
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    So you admit, tacitly, that the quality of a story has a factor in its legitimacy. You expect the clone saga and the entire pregnancy and "baby May" thing to be downplayed based on the weak quality of that era and yet expect critiques of OMD based on its lack of quality as being irrelevant to its legitimacy.
    The quality of a story is a factor in its legitimacy.

    There are two separate arguments that should be untangled. One is about good/ great stories, where the focus is on the quality of the material.

    The other is on bad stories, where the focus is on how terrible something is.

    I think One More Day can survive on the good stories standard, since there have been some impressive comic books afterwards, with Spider Island, Superior Spider-Man and the best of Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  11. #146
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Right...but why do you need a reality altering event in a Spider-Man comic??? I think that's what messed people up. You didn't need it. It was entirely unnecessary.
    well, yeah. i still see hating reality altering events as a thing as a different complaint specifically to the holes they create. it almost implies that if OMD were a water-tight continuity rewrite, then that would be more acceptable. which i don’t think would be the case
    Last edited by boots; 05-13-2019 at 08:33 PM.
    troo fan or death

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    They might think about marriage, especially when Peter was retired as Spider-Man and they were expecting their first kid. But then the Green Goblin poisoned MJ so that she would lose her baby.

    If you liked that plot point, it could still be part of the character's background.
    Unless that's explained, then no, it's not part of their background. It's way too big of a change. Why are you being so flippant about this?

  13. #148
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    See here's the thing. Until the 90's Clone Saga, Spider-Man in 616 was a title of great integrity. Death meant Death. Status-quo changes lasted and stuck. Consequences had impact. There was no periodic attempt to say "the last 20 years didn't happen". The 90s Clone Saga destroyed that but at the very least it failed in its attempt. So even though it tried to do this horrible retcon and stunt, its' forgivable because of its incompetence even if in story terms it isn't. The aftermath of the Clone Saga continued after that in EIC Harras' tenure and the titles didn't recover until JMS came along. In the case of OMD it went ahead with that retcon and in the process it created this terrible precedent and loss of trust while also damaging the core integrity of Spider-Man titles beyond repair.

    We tend to forget this, but the constant retcons and revolving door deaths of comics is still a relatively recent thing. That it has become normalized and even acceptable is unfortunate. In the case of Spider-Man his title held out against that trend longer than others did. The point is it isn't normal or expected from Spider-Man nor should it be treated that way.
    that all dovetails with what i’m saying; it’s an industry wide thing and i don’t know if it’s ever going away

    keeping in mind that sustained serial story telling like this has never been attempted before (to my knowledge), so there was always going to be a certain amount of experimentation when encountering new challenges (bloated continuity, aging demographic, technology and social advancements). maybe spidey was “broke don’t fix it”, maybe the attempted retcons were mistakes, maybe they worked, maybe the overall effect was 0.

    from a marvel perspective, it certainly looks like the spider-man brand is still strong. fan perspectives are obviously more varied.
    troo fan or death

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    well, yeah. i still see hating reality altering events as a thing as a different complaint to the holes they create. it almost implies that if OMD were a water-tight continuity rewrite, then that would be more acceptable. which i don’t think would be the case
    Right, and I agree: the story would be disliked regardless. But it was still unnecessary, and no matter which holes they have to explain, they created an even bigger one by making this story in the first place. You didn't need to
    Spider-Man wasn't broken (maybe emotionally, but not in our world)

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Right, and I agree: the story would be disliked regardless. But it was still unnecessary, and no matter which holes they have to explain, they created an even bigger one by making this story in the first place. You didn't need to
    Spider-Man wasn't broken (maybe emotionally, but not in our world)
    i’m not sure how necessary OMD was, i don’t have the data that (i hope) marvel was using to motivate the choice they made. i understand their rationale, i’m not entirely convinced by it, but i get it
    troo fan or death

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