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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    ...In a realistic (not necessarily real-time) timeline, Aunt May could be senile and bed-ridden, but that does show the drawbacks of realism.

    The comics could have survived with the marriage, but it's better without it for the sake of the illusion of change..
    I disagree with this statement (I don't think it matters either way with a talented enough writer or writers) but to each their own.
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-11-2019 at 08:24 PM.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Jesus. Tell us how you really feel.
    Have just done so. OMD and BND is basically saying that the marriage wasn't important. Is that an inaccurate read of that, in your opinion?

  3. #78
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Have just done so. OMD and BND is basically saying that the marriage wasn't important. Is that an inaccurate read of that, in your opinion?
    No, you just posted an essay again like when we first talked, that's all.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    No, you just posted an essay again like when we first talked, that's all.
    I just gave a one-sentence view. You didn't offer your opinion. IS it wrong for me to state that OMD is throwing shade on the marriage era?

  5. #80
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I just gave a one-sentence view. You didn't offer your opinion. IS it wrong for me to state that OMD is throwing shade on the marriage era?
    No, I didn't disagree.
    The Amazing, Spectacular, Sensational Web-Slinger!

  6. #81
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    in comics, if one creator tactically nukes something they don't want to work with, like a character, a status quo, a costume, blah blah blah, then the next person is free to fix it, for better or for worse, and as long as your superhero comic still has a character doing superhero things related to the book's name, you can do anything, because you can hypothetically convince editors to do anything if you have an argument for why your story needs it or why it should be done

    nothing is sacred and we're all going to die
    heroine addict we love you come back

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    in comics, if one creator tactically nukes something they don't want to work with, like a character, a status quo, a costume, blah blah blah, then the next person is free to fix it, for better or for worse, and as long as your superhero comic still has a character doing superhero things related to the book's name, you can do anything, because you can hypothetically convince editors to do anything if you have an argument for why your story needs it or why it should be done
    None of the BND team argued for the marriage going away. That was decided upon by Quesada himself. The BND writing team signed on to write Spider-Man and that would have happened regardless of the marriage being there or not. JMS didn't agree with it either, but eventually said yes out of professional courtesy to Quesada and a sense of friendship to the man, and in the vain hope of somehow salvaging it and doing a good story. Paul Guggenheim and Dan Slott said multiple times, at the time and afterwards, as did Fred van Lente, that they would have worked on Spider-Man if he was married or not. And Guggenheim has said he'd be totally okay with the marriage coming back, noting that nothing of what he did in BND has stuck. Guggenheim also said that his initial reaction to hearing Quesada's actual OMD plot (he was told there would be a retcon but never the details until later), was one of shock and the coming s--t-storm he had signed on for.

    nothing is sacred and we're all going to die
    To quote Reed Richards in Secret Wars 2015, "Everybody Lives".

  8. #83
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    yes, but if someone hypothetically wanted mary jane dead, it would be a huge ask, but they would have the chance to at least propose an argument that maybe, maaaaybe could work, breaking up the relationship or writing her out of the book is much less of an ask and could definitely be done if someone really wanted to and they could address some concerns, and their plans for it were pretty good, prettaaay, prettaaay, pretty good

    nothing is sacred and we're all going to die
    heroine addict we love you come back

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    yes, but if someone hypothetically wanted mary jane dead, it would be a huge ask, but they would have the chance to at least propose an argument that maybe, maaaaybe could work,
    There's nothing hypothetical about this. Bob Harras ordered Mackie and Byrne to kill of MJ over their objections, and that included Byrne who didn't agree with the marriage. Paul Jenkins criticized that multiple times throughout that entire period calling it a terrible mistake and while he wrote Spider-Man in that time, he was never happy about it, and only felt satisfied when she returned, and that was restored.

    And in any case, do people want to kill off Mary Jane because she is better off dead and a good story could be done with that, or as a way to make Peter single again? Those are two separate things. And not comparable. Spider-Man's story doesn't work with too many dead supporting cast.

    breaking up the relationship or writing her out of the book is much less of an ask and could definitely be done if someone really wanted to and they could address some concerns, and their plans for it were pretty good, prettaaay, prettaaay, pretty good
    Whose plans are you talking about here? In any case we have the stories. If the Spider-Marriage was a bad decision and the decision to undo it the good one, then the Second Clone Saga and OMD should be good stories. The decision to kill off MJ and the entire death/separation era should be considered a great era. In all cases, that has not proven to be the case. The fact that the stories that undid the marriage are bad stories disproves the notion that this was a good direction to take Spider-Man in.

    nothing is sacred and we're all going to die
    To quote Reed Richards in Secret Wars 2015, "Everybody Lives".

  10. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Maybe not Obama but what about Charles Dickens? Dickens was hired by an American Newpaper to write a Christmas Carol. In the original story, Scrooge Dies. The newspaper said "Americans would not like this" and rejected it. Dickens had to change the ending where Scrooge lives. It took Dickens until the end of his life to admit the paper was right. Just because someone is famous and ( or) great.does not mean Everything they say or write is perfect. Marvel, should have realized how much readers would hate OMD and like the newspaper editor did to Dickens, say NO to Slott.
    This does not appear to be the story of how Dickens wrote the Christmas Carol, or of its reception in the US.

    http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/...alinescu1.html

    It was written for an English audience, and published as a novella. There was no comment about changing for American sensibilities.

    At the time, Dickens had pissed off Americans with their depiction in The Life and Adventures of Martin Chuzzlewit, as well as his travelogue American Notes for General Circulation, so they weren't his target audience.

    https://lithub.com/charles-dickens-h...s-bad-manners/

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    This does not appear to be the story of how Dickens wrote the Christmas Carol, or of its reception in the US.

    http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/...alinescu1.html

    It was written for an English audience, and published as a novella. There was no comment about changing for American sensibilities.

    At the time, Dickens had pissed off Americans with their depiction in The Life and Adventures of Martin Chuzzlewit, as well as his comments in favor of copyright.
    Dickens did change the ending of Great Expectations after reader reception and public demand though.

    To quote an example closer to Spider-Man, Blake Bell's Strange and Stranger, his biography of Ditko mentions that Steve once pitched to Stan a story to kill off Betty Brant. Stan told him no, feeling it would give too much baggage on top of Ben's death. Ditko came around and agreed that Stan was right. Ditko's plan had Betty dying in a domestic accident rather than any supervillain or criminal shenanigan.

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Dickens did change the ending of Great Expectations after reader reception and public demand though.

    To quote an example closer to Spider-Man, Blake Bell's Strange and Stranger, his biography of Ditko mentions that Steve once pitched to Stan a story to kill off Betty Brant. Stan told him no, feeling it would give too much baggage on top of Ben's death. Ditko came around and agreed that Stan was right. Ditko's plan had Betty dying in a domestic accident rather than any supervillain or criminal shenanigan.
    From what I've read with a few minutes on Google, Dickens changed the ending of Great Expectations prior to publication based on the advice of writer friends.

    http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/en...ns/ending.html

    https://listverse.com/2013/01/14/deleted-book-chapters/

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    unless something is actually done, you’ll never truly know if it would have worked

    on making creative changes based on feedback; good advice i once heard was to listen to your friend’s feedback, if enough of them tell you something isn’t working...believe them. it isn’t. but fffs, do not listen to their ideas on how to fix it. that’s up to you
    troo fan or death

  14. #89
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Didnít I see you complaining about it in a another thread?
    It's ... possible, I mean, I have said a bad thing or two about it but you can have complaints about stories even if you do like them. I'm not one of those people that harp on it forever.

    I will say that OMD caused the fanbase to become horrible. You can't have Spider-man conversations anymore without people bringing it up and every appearance of Mary Jane, or for that matter, any female that shows any interest in Peter, is somehow twisted to prove a point where somebody is bound to rant for paragraphs on end about how the story is the worst thing that ever happened in human existence, how the people who wrote it hate marriage and support satanism, or how the comic itself somehow broke into the reader's home and molested their houseplants.

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    in comics, if one creator tactically nukes something they don't want to work with, like a character, a status quo, a costume, blah blah blah, then the next person is free to fix it, for better or for worse, and as long as your superhero comic still has a character doing superhero things related to the book's name, you can do anything, because you can hypothetically convince editors to do anything if you have an argument for why your story needs it or why it should be done

    nothing is sacred and we're all going to die
    I disagree on multiple levels.

    In these types of comics, writers are essentially borrowing characters from their successors. A reliance on retcons from their end can increase the chance of changing characters too much, and breaking things in ways that change the reality of the series. Imagine the arguments about One More Day if we had that kind of retcon three times a decade.

    It's also probably possible to break characters in ways that can't be fixed. If DC were stupid enough to do a "Leaving Neverland" take on Batman & Robin, no retcon would fix the damage to the character's reputation. They're not going to be that dumb, but it's always possible that there will be a decision that is very unpopular in ways they don't anticipate (editorial may have blind spots), or something that hits a cultural fault line in a way that's difficult to reverse (if half the fans like it and see any reversal as an insult, and the other half demand immediate reversal.)

    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    unless something is actually done, you’ll never truly know if it would have worked

    on making creative changes based on feedback; good advice i once heard was to listen to your friend’s feedback, if enough of them tell you something isn’t working...believe them. it isn’t. but fffs, do not listen to their ideas on how to fix it. that’s up to you
    The discussions on feedback are a bit muddied by the difference in writing for a finite work, and writing a serial with no end in sight.

    With a traditional movie or novel, the main thing is to tell one story well.

    A serial requires the character and world to stay intact for years to come.

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