Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 55
  1. #16
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,246

    Default

    I think we also need to consider what someone means by "staying power."

    Plenty of villains go in and out of fashion depending on the times and who is writing them. Others, like Loki and even Magneto, sort of change with the times, which has in recent years meant going almost completely hero.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    3,119

    Default

    It's hard to say definitively in terms of a formula. Because it's always a mix of factors. Visual design and characteristic is the main thing however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I think we also need to consider what someone means by "staying power."

    Plenty of villains go in and out of fashion depending on the times and who is writing them. Others, like Loki and even Magneto, sort of change with the times, which has in recent years meant going almost completely hero.
    Yeah. I mean until Frank Miller, Kingpin was this minor Spider-Man villains. He didn't make many appearances, but Miller made him into one of Marvel's most iconic villains. Magneto is what we know him as today thanks to Claremont.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,246

    Default

    Another villain is Apocalypse, who we haven't really seen a lot of since the early 2000s. Yes, we have him in AoX, but that was after almost a decade of not seeing him really at all, despite the fact that his presence wasn't totally absent from comics.

    Apocalypse was one of the biggest villains Marvel ever had, so what made him drop out of fashion? Was it his look? His inability to really change with the times the way Loki and Magneto and Kingpin have?

    I'm not counting Evan as Apocalypse because while he is connected to him, they are very different characters.

  4. #19
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Posts
    8,532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Another villain is Apocalypse, who we haven't really seen a lot of since the early 2000s. Yes, we have him in AoX, but that was after almost a decade of not seeing him really at all, despite the fact that his presence wasn't totally absent from comics.

    Apocalypse was one of the biggest villains Marvel ever had, so what made him drop out of fashion? Was it his look? His inability to really change with the times the way Loki and Magneto and Kingpin have?

    I'm not counting Evan as Apocalypse because while he is connected to him, they are very different characters.
    he sucks and is carried by one blockbuster event from the 90's
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Stark
    That's what I have over Beelzebub now, Honoka-chan. He thinks he's a third-year school idol. I know what I am. And in this fight-- that makes me INVINCIBLE!

  5. #20
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,891

    Default

    Even X-Men Evolution under-utilised Apocalypse. People are just bad at portraying him.

    Uncanny X-Force mostly played around with who could fill in the void with him gone but the most we got out of it was some new X-Kid people like to use for some reason.
    "Cable was right!"

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Another villain is Apocalypse, who we haven't really seen a lot of since the early 2000s. Yes, we have him in AoX, but that was after almost a decade of not seeing him really at all, despite the fact that his presence wasn't totally absent from comics.

    Apocalypse was one of the biggest villains Marvel ever had, so what made him drop out of fashion? Was it his look? His inability to really change with the times the way Loki and Magneto and Kingpin have?

    I'm not counting Evan as Apocalypse because while he is connected to him, they are very different characters.
    Apocalypse essentially became an excuse to give a power boost to depowered/underpowered heroes as horsemen. Plus, he went from complex motivations and plans under Simonson to "destroy everything" bruiser.

  7. #22
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    13,552

    Default

    There are some other factors that are important with villains:

    Versatility. This is what is lacking with many of the X-Men villains. You rarely see them operate outside of the X Titles, even some of the bigger ones like Magneto. The Kingpin was mentioned earlier. He can be used in a number of stories that feature a "street level" hero like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Moon Knight, etc. He also works well on those occasions when a group of villains have a summit meeting or common cause because he has an important base of operations. The Crime Boss villains sounds cliche but we all know how dangerous they are in the RW.

    Motivation It also helps when writers provide the "why" the character. But it doesn't always have to be there. For example, with Heath Ledger's Joker he gave about 2 or 3 back stories at various points of the movie. We don't know if any of them are true or not and it may not even matter. It also helps when the villain is the type that believes he is the hero of his story.

    Gravitas and Consistency When Hero A is in conflict with Villain B you want there to be some doubt that the hero can come out ahead. In the movies for example, IMO some of the more dangerous villains were Red Grant (Robert Shaw) for James Bond (Sean Connery)and Liberty Valence (Lee Marvin) for John Wayne (Tom Doniphan). I use Bond and just about any John Wayne character as examples of the protaganists who always overcome their opponent. But the drama is heightend if you really felt like this was going to be a tough fight to win.

    But that gravitas can be easily lost in the comics. Case in point: Squirrel Girl vs just about anyone. Most villains have survived with their credibility mostly intact but it can still be a problem when the hero vs villain match is handled in a manner that is not consistent with known abilities / power levels.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    3,378

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Another writer using them well after the first writer.
    .
    This is basically key. You can spend all the time building up your villain, but if that villain never gets used after you, they’ll quickly be forgotten.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Cosmic Shores of the Pacific
    Posts
    4,885

    Default

    No deep thought required here. The villain simply needs to be a foil, or credible obstruction for the hero. What sustains the villain IS the hero.
    “After my initial feeling of being violated, seeing that pompous fool using my creation to stroke his infantile ego, it finally struck me that the leader of my country and the free world actually enjoys comparing himself to a mass murderer." - Jim Starlin, December 2019

  10. #25
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,891

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    No deep thought required here. The villain simply needs to be a foil, or credible obstruction for the hero. What sustains the villain IS the hero.
    Then why do we still have to suffer through Taskmaster?
    "Cable was right!"

  11. #26
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Latverian Embassy
    Posts
    13,552

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    No deep thought required here. The villain simply needs to be a foil, or credible obstruction for the hero. What sustains the villain IS the hero.
    Not always. I think Doom has done pretty well on his own: Super-Villain Team-Up, Astonishing Tales had stories of varying quality but there are some good ones in there. Doom 2099 was one of the better of the 2099 series, especially the Warren Ellis issues. And none of it relied on Reed. I even give Infamous Iron Man props for giving a (mostly) logical path for post SW Doom.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Cosmic Shores of the Pacific
    Posts
    4,885

    Default

    Probably a topic for another thread, but with all of the hero vs. hero crap, and given that fact that many heroes have life perspectives and philosophies that are shared by some villains, I'm actually shocked that we don't see instances where the enemy (villain) of one hero is another hero's friend. And I'm not just talking about the "noble villains", either.
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 05-10-2019 at 08:14 PM.
    “After my initial feeling of being violated, seeing that pompous fool using my creation to stroke his infantile ego, it finally struck me that the leader of my country and the free world actually enjoys comparing himself to a mass murderer." - Jim Starlin, December 2019

  13. #28
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    1,725

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Another writer using them well after the first writer.
    .
    Exactly, this doesn't happen nearly enough. Everyone wants to use the iconic ones

  14. #29
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,891

    Default

    Stan Lee also established Doom by having him bully other heroes besides the FF early on.
    "Cable was right!"

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    The Cosmic Shores of the Pacific
    Posts
    4,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Then why do we still have to suffer through Taskmaster?
    The Taskmaster, as in the guy whose abilities are mirror images of other characters, esp., heroes, skill abilities? He's the perfect embodiment of a foil.
    “After my initial feeling of being violated, seeing that pompous fool using my creation to stroke his infantile ego, it finally struck me that the leader of my country and the free world actually enjoys comparing himself to a mass murderer." - Jim Starlin, December 2019

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •