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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Not always. I think Doom has done pretty well on his own: Super-Villain Team-Up, Astonishing Tales had stories of varying quality but there are some good ones in there. Doom 2099 was one of the better of the 2099 series, especially the Warren Ellis issues. And none of it relied on Reed. I even give Infamous Iron Man props for giving a (mostly) logical path for post SW Doom.
    And yet, Doom started out with Reed as his #1 nemesis. And best believe if Marvel closed up shop today, publishing one final comic, it will be Reed vs. Doom on the cover.
    “After my initial feeling of being violated, seeing that pompous fool using my creation to stroke his infantile ego, it finally struck me that the leader of my country and the free world actually enjoys comparing himself to a mass murderer." - Jim Starlin, December 2019

  2. #32
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Another writer using them well after the first writer.
    .
    Truth. I'd also suggest for the truly great and durable ones, gain is usually less important to them than proving something to themselves, and to others. The easier it is for subsequent writers to get their heads around that need, the better they're likely to get used well.

    The Red Skull, for example, is somebody that you can throw at anybody because he means To Rool De Vorld! But he has the most power when he's going after Captain America, not just because they have such long intertwined histories, but because The Skull is a fascist, and -though it's rarely said - he needs to prove that he is the superior one no matter how genetically optimized his platitude spouting adversary is.

    Loki doesn't just want power and worship, he wants to prove he deserves a throne more than that hammer-slinging hippie half-brother of his.

    The Leader and Modok need others to bow to their intellect to prove that their intellect truly is superior.

    Magneto didn't become great until Claremont took him beyond simple megalomania and remade him as a former victim proving that his differences made him superior rather than inferior.

    The Wrecker and The Absorbing Man have always needed to prove they were the toughest guys in the room.

  3. #33
    Niffleheim
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    Gorr didn't stay long but his impact on Thor is still felt years later.

  4. #34
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    No deep thought required here. The villain simply needs to be a foil, or credible obstruction for the hero. What sustains the villain IS the hero.
    Not necessarily. Far more often, the hero is the obstruction against the villain, who is the main agent of the superhero story. Perhaps the primary counterexample would be Batman, who as a character has very little going for him if his villains are removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    Not always. I think Doom has done pretty well on his own: Super-Villain Team-Up, Astonishing Tales had stories of varying quality but there are some good ones in there. Doom 2099 was one of the better of the 2099 series, especially the Warren Ellis issues. And none of it relied on Reed. I even give Infamous Iron Man props for giving a (mostly) logical path for post SW Doom.
    Doom is probably the prime example of a Marvel villain with a developed personality and thematic depth. I think it's no coincidence that he (a) is an early Marvel character, (b) is the antagonist against a group which are more defined by their relations to each other than by their own individual personalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Probably a topic for another thread, but with all of the hero vs. hero crap, and given that fact that many heroes have life perspectives and philosophies that are shared by some villains, I'm actually shocked that we don't see instances there the enemy (villain) of one hero is another hero's friend. And I'm not just talking about the "noble villains", either.
    Really interesting idea. DC has been doing some moves in that direction with Poison Ivy, though she is in limbo as a character right now. But you run into the problem that any such depiction would require constant minor crossovers. But I really like it as a concept.
    Last edited by kjn; 05-10-2019 at 02:29 PM.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Probably a topic for another thread, but with all of the hero vs. hero crap, and given that fact that many heroes have life perspectives and philosophies that are shared by some villains, I'm actually shocked that we don't see instances there the enemy (villain) of one hero is another hero's friend. And I'm not just talking about the "noble villains", either.
    Really interesting idea. DC has been doing some moves in that direction with Poison Ivy, though she is in limbo as a character right now. But you run into the problem that any such depiction would require constant minor crossovers. But I really like it as a concept.
    I also find this notion interesting. Did you have a "for instance" in mind JudicatorPrime?

  6. #36
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    The Taskmaster, as in the guy whose abilities are mirror images of other characters, esp., heroes, skill abilities? He's the perfect embodiment of a foil.
    Taskmaster doesn't even seem to be understood very well by some of the creative staff. Some artists draw him with a full set of teeth as if the mask were his true face. I did like that mini series from several years back but it seems to have been forgotten.

  7. #37
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    And yet, Doom started out with Reed as his #1 nemesis. And best believe if Marvel closed up shop today, publishing one final comic, it will be Reed vs. Doom on the cover.
    They kind of did that already with the finale of Secret Wars (2015). Some might say that it would be a Peter Parker / Norman Osborn cover or Thanos vs Everybody cover.

  8. #38
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    When it comes to Marvel villains, I feel like the ones who last are the ones who become almost family to the heroes.

    The Fantastic Four certainly don't like Doom, but he is basically their 5th member.

    Loki is Thor's brother and a lot of their conflict lies in the fact that one or both of them can't really kill the other under normal circumstances because, deep down, they love each other too much.

    Magneto is the darkness that the X-Men risks becoming, but he's also a valued ally and he basically never goes away.

    Norman Osborn is...um...well, he is as much a part of Peter's world as anyone else.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    The Taskmaster, as in the guy whose abilities are mirror images of other characters, esp., heroes, skill abilities? He's the perfect embodiment of a foil.
    Err, no he's not.

    When people talk about acting as a foil, they mean in regards to characterization or concept

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Really interesting idea. DC has been doing some moves in that direction with Poison Ivy, though she is in limbo as a character right now. But you run into the problem that any such depiction would require constant minor crossovers. But I really like it as a concept.
    Now that I think about it, we actually do see that sort of thing happen, only not so much in the non-mutant world. With the X-Men anyone who considers Magneto, Emma Frost or Mystique an enemy is likely to cross swords with one of the more heroic X-characters. It all depends on who is going after Magneto/Emma/Mystique and when...and why. But I think we'd see more of this sort of thing in the non-mutant world.
    “After my initial feeling of being violated, seeing that pompous fool using my creation to stroke his infantile ego, it finally struck me that the leader of my country and the free world actually enjoys comparing himself to a mass murderer." - Jim Starlin, December 2019

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Err, no he's not.

    When people talk about acting as a foil, they mean in regards to characterization or concept
    His powers are the foil. His characterization, obviously can be something else.
    “After my initial feeling of being violated, seeing that pompous fool using my creation to stroke his infantile ego, it finally struck me that the leader of my country and the free world actually enjoys comparing himself to a mass murderer." - Jim Starlin, December 2019

  12. #42
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    I think we see of little of it in that of all the heroes out there, Doom has a sort of working relationship with Doctor Strange. The big push for that was in the GN Triumph and Torment and then much later Hickman has them working together during the final incursions in New Avengers. Than he becomes Doom's sheriff on Battleworld. But then when Reed inevitably shows up, Stephen immediate gravitates towards him and the other survivors of the raft. Victor kills him (or appears to since Strange is able to give the Key to Agamatto to Black Panther ) because he feels like he's been cast aside. Then later in Infamous Iron Man, Stephen is just about the only one that is willing to accept that Doom is sincere about taking a different path and he provides a bit of counseling and support. w

  13. #43

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    ... not just casually murdering large groups of people in their successive appearances. (and still being handled with kid gloves)

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
    There are some other factors that are important with villains:

    Versatility. This is what is lacking with many of the X-Men villains. You rarely see them operate outside of the X Titles, even some of the bigger ones like Magneto. The Kingpin was mentioned earlier. He can be used in a number of stories that feature a "street level" hero like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Moon Knight, etc. He also works well on those occasions when a group of villains have a summit meeting or common cause because he has an important base of operations. The Crime Boss villains sounds cliche but we all know how dangerous they are in the RW.

    Motivation It also helps when writers provide the "why" the character. But it doesn't always have to be there. For example, with Heath Ledger's Joker he gave about 2 or 3 back stories at various points of the movie. We don't know if any of them are true or not and it may not even matter. It also helps when the villain is the type that believes he is the hero of his story.

    Gravitas and Consistency When Hero A is in conflict with Villain B you want there to be some doubt that the hero can come out ahead. In the movies for example, IMO some of the more dangerous villains were Red Grant (Robert Shaw) for James Bond (Sean Connery)and Liberty Valence (Lee Marvin) for John Wayne (Tom Doniphan). I use Bond and just about any John Wayne character as examples of the protaganists who always overcome their opponent. But the drama is heightend if you really felt like this was going to be a tough fight to win.

    But that gravitas can be easily lost in the comics. Case in point: Squirrel Girl vs just about anyone. Most villains have survived with their credibility mostly intact but it can still be a problem when the hero vs villain match is handled in a manner that is not consistent with known abilities / power levels.
    There is not many reasons for Magneto to be in Thor, Hulk, or the Avengers unless he has to kick their ass or straighten them out for getting out of line. It has to make sense...like why on earth would Spider Man be involved in something that Magneto himself would give attention to? He can let Exodus, Uniscione, or a more friendly face like Rogue talk on his behalf. Now Sinister harassing the Avengers or the Fantastic Four over Franklin was always a easy money storyline.

  15. #45
    Incredible Member your_name_here's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralmist View Post
    Gorr didn't stay long but his impact on Thor is still felt years later.
    He really is. A very iconic Thor villain.

    I always imagined he’d return somehow at the end of Aaron’s run on Thor, but that’s never happened.

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