Avengers: Endgame PLOTHOLES!

[John Venus]

Cap went back to Peggy. Had his dance. Create an alternate timeline where he had a life with her. and Cap being Cap, probably even fixed a lot of problems before they even happened. Then probably used AT tech to return to the prime timeline to hand over the shield to Falcon. The Russo brothers explanation matches with how time travel is said to work in the movie. So Russos > writers over this one. It's possible that the writers made a mistake when answering the question or misunderstood their own story or madly conveyed a point. Entirely possible when they are doing press for a movie this big.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

Because if you remove the mind stone, you end up with an alternate reality where Ultron kills everybody on Earth.
or if you take the time stone, you end up with an alternate reality where Dorm kills everybody.
or if you take the space stone, you end up with no Cap Marvel which means the Kree-Skull war goes on much longer.
and so on and so.


The Infinity stones are the only thing that matter because they are the significant, intentional change being made to those timelines.


He doesn't, but it's incredibly unlikely that Steve marrying Peggy instead of whatever chump (everybody is a chump compared to Cap, don't kid yourself) she settled for would lead to such an end. Especially since Steve went into this knowing what's coming and how the future is supposed to look like.


All of the ATs are exactly the same as the prime timeline up until the point the change was made. Some are big (Loki escapes in 2012, No Thanos in 2014), some are small (Thor waits 10 extra seconds for his hammer, The space stone is gone for 10 seconds and nobody was aware of it). That means all of them have a Thanos (Except 2), all of them have stones (except the prime) and all of the Thanosi want to snap.

The entire point of returning the stones to the point in time they were removed from is to make sure they were in the places they needed to be to ensure Ultron, Dorm, or whoever doesn't kill everybody because a stone was needed to stop them yet none was available.
The point of returning the stones was so that those timeline would have the stones available when they were needed.

Yeah, I understand that the Stones being at their proper places was important, but again, I don't believe it is the ONLY important thing in the past that can't be changed. It's just writer's fiat to say otherwise.

Steve living in the past doesn't just change the fact that she didn't marry another guy. It also changes the fact that Steve was supposed to have been in ice. In fact, he was, so there are two Steves in that AT -- the prime-Steve and the AT-Steve who is the one in the ice.

In the 60 years that Steve spent with Peggy, we would have to believe that NO ONE ever saw or recognized him. That's impossible. He never went to the supermarket? He wore a disguise, some might say. OK, but then you're saying he never got close enough to anyone for an extended period where they would see through the disguise. That's better than Clark Kent. He never went to dinner with the neighbors and sat face-to-face with them for 2 hours -- time enough for them to question any disguise he might be wearing -- especially if he encountered the neighbors on a daily basis for years and years.

Or, what if Peggy is so enraptured that she's living with her dream man that she accidentally lets it slip at work or talks to Steve on the phone when she thinks no one is overhearing. That someone turns out to be a Hydra-implant at SHIELD who alerts everyone Cap is still alive. Then, Hydra launches an attack on his neighborhood to kill him. Based on old-Steve's happy attitude when he returned to the prime-timeline (again, how?), none of this happened, but he could not have know that. Steve could not have known that staying behind in the past was one of those "not a big deal" changes to the past because something could have happened subsequently that would indeed have made it a very big deal.

Now, back to the alternate-Thanosi that have been created out of all of this. By the way, that's certainly a big change in and of itself, isn't it? By creating an alternate timeline -- even if nothing else goes wrong -- you've created an alternate Thanos who would want to make his own Infinity Gauntlet and snap half of everyone out of existence. So, all these ATs get created by the Avengers with the consequence that the AT-Thanosi will exterminate half of them.

So, unless in every single AT, the AT-Avengers defeated the AT-Thanosi, the prime-Avengers ended up killing many more people than they saved.

Thanks, Avengers!!!

[Kusanagi]

Now, back to the alternate-Thanosi that have been created out of all of this. By the way, that's certainly a big change in and of itself, isn't it? By creating an alternate timeline -- even if nothing else goes wrong -- you've created an alternate Thanos who would want to make his own Infinity Gauntlet and snap half of everyone out of existence. So, all these ATs get created by the Avengers with the consequence that the AT-Thanosi will exterminate half of them.

So, unless in every single AT, the AT-Avengers defeated the AT-Thanosi, the prime-Avengers ended up killing many more people than they saved.

Thanks, Avengers!!!

Well if nothing else happens in the universes there's no reason they can't do the same as our Avengers, granted they'll be creating even more alternate universes

But hey maybe we'll get more 2014 Verses. Universes with No Thanos, No snap, and as a result no time travel.

[Arsenal]

Yeah, I understand that the Stones being at their proper places was important, but again, I don't believe it is the ONLY important thing in the past that can't be changed. It's just writer's fiat to say otherwise.

Wasn’t this already covered when Banner said you can’t just kill Baby Thanos? Because I feel like that already answers your question.

Steve living in the past doesn't just change the fact that she didn't marry another guy. It also changes the fact that Steve was supposed to have been in ice. In fact, he was, so there are two Steves in that AT -- the prime-Steve and the AT-Steve who is the one in the ice.

I don’t see the problem with 2 Caps existing in this specific AT.

In the 60 years that Steve spent with Peggy, we would have to believe that NO ONE ever saw or recognized him. That's impossible. He never went to the supermarket? He wore a disguise, some might say. OK, but then you're saying he never got close enough to anyone for an extended period where they would see through the disguise. That's better than Clark Kent. He never went to dinner with the neighbors and sat face-to-face with them for 2 hours -- time enough for them to question any disguise he might be wearing -- especially if he encountered the neighbors on a daily basis for years and years.

Odds are any “I saw Captain America in the supermarket!!!” story ends up being a headline for some tabloid that nobody ever takes seriously. It’s not like anybody had smart phones in 1945 and could easily send pictures to their local news station to prove it. Besides, how many people could realistically recognize Steve’s face? I would bet that’s an incredibly small list.

Or, what if Peggy is so enraptured that she's living with her dream man that she accidentally lets it slip at work or talks to Steve on the phone when she thinks no one is overhearing. That someone turns out to be a Hydra-implant at SHIELD who alerts everyone Cap is still alive. Then, Hydra launches an attack on his neighborhood to kill him. Based on old-Steve's happy attitude when he returned to the prime-timeline (again, how?), none of this happened, but he could not have know that. Steve could not have known that staying behind in the past was one of those "not a big deal" changes to the past because something could have happened subsequently that would indeed have made it a very big deal.

Peggy is obviously a professional who would never let something so important slip. Or Steve uses his insider knowledge that SHIELD to tell his wife “Hey, you know those guys we spent fighting while falling In love? Yeah it turns out they aren’t actually dead and infiltrate SHIELD leading to an attempted in 2014.” Steve couldn’t know how it would playout but he took a calculated risk. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t but in his case it obviously did.

Now, back to the alternate-Thanosi that have been created out of all of this. By the way, that's certainly a big change in and of itself, isn't it? By creating an alternate timeline -- even if nothing else goes wrong -- you've created an alternate Thanos who would want to make his own Infinity Gauntlet and snap half of everyone out of existence. So, all these ATs get created by the Avengers with the consequence that the AT-Thanosi will exterminate half of them.

Not only did they create an AT where Thanos no longer exists, but those ATs where he does exist are also full of people fully capable of beating him. If they can’t do it, well that’s their problem.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

Wasn’t this already covered when Banner said you can’t just kill Baby Thanos? Because I feel like that already answers your question.


I don’t see the problem with 2 Caps existing in this specific AT.


Odds are any “I saw Captain America in the supermarket!!!” story ends up being a headline for some tabloid that nobody ever takes seriously. It’s not like anybody had smart phones in 1945 and could easily send pictures to their local news station to prove it. Besides, how many people could realistically recognize Steve’s face? I would bet that’s an incredibly small list.

Peggy is obviously a professional who would never let something so important slip. Or Steve uses his insider knowledge that SHIELD to tell his wife “Hey, you know those guys we spent fighting while falling In love? Yeah it turns out they aren’t actually dead and infiltrate SHIELD leading to an attempted in 2014.” Steve couldn’t know how it would playout but he took a calculated risk. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t but in his case it obviously did.

Not only did they create an AT where Thanos no longer exists, but those ATs where he does exist are also full of people fully capable of beating him. If they can’t do it, well that’s their problem.

If the answer to time travel fallout is "that's their problem," then there was no reason for the Ancient One to give a warning about alternate timelines in the first place.

The whole movie was predicated on the in-Universe notion that they should NOT create alternate timelines. In outside-Universe terms, it's how the movie creates suspense when the Avengers are executing their time heists. If it ultimately doesn't matter what the hell they do in the past, then the suspense factor is gone. Just being told "don't change anything important" is not sufficient because the Avengers are not time travel experts. They have no idea what constitutes an important change and what doesn't.

Also, it doesn't make the Avengers look very heroic if they create ATs, and then doom those people to a potential snap-out by that AT's Thanos.

[AJBopp]

Not only did they create an AT where Thanos no longer exists, but those ATs where he does exist are also full of people fully capable of beating him. If they can’t do it, well that’s their problem.

Um, not to belabor the obvious, but the movie ends with no alternate timelines except Loki's.

Which is not to say they won't retcon it in the future, but that's how this particular movie ended.

[Kusanagi]

Um, not to belabor the obvious, but the movie ends with no alternate timelines except Loki's.

Which is not to say they won't retcon it in the future, but that's how this particular movie ended.

2014 is definitely an alternate timeline. Thanos and company are dead, or even if you believe the theory Iron Man didn't kill them, and put them back in place, Nebula killed the 2014 Nebula and that past Gamora is more than likely still in the present.

[AJBopp]

2014 is definitely an alternate timeline. Thanos and company are dead, or even if you believe the theory Iron Man didn't kill them, and put them back in place, Nebula killed the 2014 Nebula and that past Gamora is more than likely still in the present.

GASP!

Which was erased when...you know...Cap returned the Power Stone.

[Kusanagi]

GASP!

Which was erased when...you know...Cap returned the Power Stone.

I don't believe the stones work that way, but we'll see who's right whenever Guardians 3 comes around.

[AJBopp]

I don't believe the stones work that way, but we'll see who's right whenever Guardians 3 comes around.

Again, retcons are always possible. But the stones working exactly that way was the entire point of Endgame.

[Kusanagi]

Again, retcons are always possible. But the stones working exactly that way was the entire point of Endgame.

I just took what the Ancient One was saying a different way. Namely without the stones returned, they were guaranteed to off in dark directions, not necessarily that so long as the stones were in place time couldn't be altered. But again, if Gamora still exists in the modern time line (which imo seemed to be their intention) then we know there's a verse without a Thanos.

[AJBopp]

I just took what the Ancient One was saying a different way. Namely without the stones returned, they were guaranteed to off in dark directions, not necessarily that so long as the stones were in place time couldn't be altered. But again, if Gamora still exists in the modern time line (which imo seemed to be their intention) then we know there's a verse without a Thanos.

What we know is that Gamora skipped through time, just like the Avengers did. Just in a different direction. No alternate times at all.

[Kusanagi]

What we know is that Gamora skipped through time, just like the Avengers did. Just in a different direction. No alternate times at all.

But the Avengers originated from the present, and just returned there. Gamora is from a past decidedly different from the canon and stuck in the present (maybe, again I don't buy them killing her offscreen, but maybe).

So either there's a timeline without a Thanos.

or

Returning the stones, somehow negated all of past Thanos actions, yet at the same time created a separate/duplicate Gamora stuck in the present?

[Arsenal]

If the answer to time travel fallout is "that's their problem," then there was no reason for the Ancient One to give a warning about alternate timelines in the first place.

The whole movie was predicated on the in-Universe notion that they should NOT create alternate timelines. In outside-Universe terms, it's how the movie creates suspense when the Avengers are executing their time heists. If it ultimately doesn't matter what the hell they do in the past, then the suspense factor is gone. Just being told "don't change anything important" is not sufficient because the Avengers are not time travel experts. They have no idea what constitutes an important change and what doesn't.

Also, it doesn't make the Avengers look very heroic if they create ATs, and then doom those people to a potential snap-out by that AT's Thanos.

The ancient one’s warning was basically “if you take away the stone, my timeline is destined to die” which is Banner says “hey, if we return the stone shortly after it’s taken away than its nbd because the alternate timeline is essentially erased because it’ll play out the way it was always supposed to”.

And you may have an issue with the branches reality theory, but that doesn’t make what was done a plot hole so it’s irrelevant anyway.

[AJBopp]

The ancient one’s warning was basically “if you take away the stone, my timeline is destined to die” which is Banner says “hey, if we return the stone shortly after it’s taken away than its nbd because the alternate timeline is essentially erased because it’ll play out the way it was always supposed to”.

And you may have an issue with the branches reality theory, but that doesn’t make what was done a plot hole so it’s irrelevant anyway.

Exactly when, actually

Also, not "essentially," but "actually"