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  1. #91

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    I'm not following how this has to do with mine or your statement?

    Also, wikipedia is a freely editable source...making it not much of a source at all. Since I'm not sure of what you are referring to by "how it went down" I wouldn't know what to take from your statement either way.

    To add further "Comicsgate" or "NonComicsgate" has no baring on Marvels current sales. Anyone trying to use that as some sort of scape goat or giving them a pass is still setting up the company for failure.

    So going back to my original statement ... All I'm saying is it is very clear that there are serval people at Marvel writing comics that they do not care about and have no real interest in writing these characters. It is also becoming very clear that no one is really holding them accountable for anything. The failure of their books or the company as whole has no baring on people who don't or barely care. Instead it has effects on US as FANS. So if the company itself is not going to hold them accountable THEN WE SHOULD.

    That is not Comicsgate or NonComicsgate. That is people who care showing that they care and demanding better. Because as soon as the people who don't care find what they believe is better they will move on and we will still be here playing with the toys they broke.


    Edit: To add further... I'm not some psycho who instantly googles the race, religious practice, and so on of the people creating these books. Half the time I barely know anything about them at all and barely care. As long as the title is good I'm happy. I feel most people are in the same exact boat as I am.

    Therefore if your plan or if you are trying to throw that straw-man at me then I'm probably going to just ignore you moving forward. Not worth talking to someone who is trying to bait.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-19-2019 at 05:12 PM.
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  3. #93
    Fantastic Member Flashback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I'm not following how this has to do with mine or your statement?
    I put the link up to show you how it ended or a least show you how bad it got.

    And I mentioned Comicsgate once you started advocating that disgruntled fans should go and hit social media to voice they're displeasure at Marvel. you also said

    We need to let them know regardless of who is writing or what character is in the book that when its been cancelled for the 3rd or 4th time that people are not interested in this
    This once again started to sound similar to how comicsgators began, where they would hit Marvel or the Writers of a particular series and say "hey _____, no one wants ____ cancel this"
    until it eventually evolve into harassing/trolling the writers, once said writers fought back because shocker they do care and are human beings too. This also lead to hate campaigns for particular type of characters but lets not get in to that.

    So to reiterate, when I mentioned Comicsgate, it wasn't on a comment that really had much to do with Sales numbers and more about the tactics fans should use. Which I couldn't help but point out sounded like how comicsgate came to fruition and one I hope doesn't get a second wind anytime soon.

    If there's one thing we should have learned from CG ordeal its this: going to social media to tell Marvel you know how to safe the comic industry by canceling this or simply venting your frustrations, really doesn't do much and isn't going to have the desire affect you want. Simply don't buy what you dislike and buy what you do.

  4. #94
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    I put the link up to show you how it ended or a least show you how bad it got.

    And I mentioned Comicsgate once you started advocating that disgruntled fans should go and hit social media to voice they're displeasure at Marvel. you also said
    According to the wiki (again not a reliable source) Comicsgate is still going on. So I'm still not following you there.

    It also never mentioned disgruntled fans. But more made it sound like a hate movement. So I'm still at a loss as to why you even brought it up

    This once again started to sound similar to how comicsgators began, where they would hit Marvel or the Writers of a particular series and say "hey _____, no one wants ____ cancel this"
    until it eventually evolve into harassing/trolling the writers, once said writers fought back because shocker they do care and are human beings too. This also lead to hate campaigns for particular type of characters but lets not get in to that.

    So to reiterate, when I mentioned Comicsgate, it wasn't on a comment that really had much to do with Sales numbers and more about the tactics fans should use. Which I couldn't help but point out sounded like how comicsgate came to fruition and one I hope doesn't get a second wind anytime soon.

    If there's one thing we should have learned from CG ordeal its this: going to social media to tell Marvel you know how to safe the comic industry by canceling this or simply venting your frustrations, really doesn't do much and isn't going to have the desire affect you want. Simply don't buy what you dislike and buy what you do.

    And once again I'm saying COMICSGATE has no barring CURRENT SALES or POOR STORYTELLING/MARKETING PRACTICES.

    They don't even really belong in this discussion. At this point you seem to only be bring them up as tactic to avoid an actual conversation and to get me to shut up. Short of a mod stepping in the latter is not going to happen.


    I also feel that that at this point simply going along with it and not saying anything isn't helping either. Because from where I'm sitting they are using a two fold method of lying and believing that what they are doing will eventually pay off. But the market is continually showing them otherwise.

    I'm also not advocating people harass anyone. I am saying that if we want good books we need to start the conversation with them directly. Pointing out to them as fans why certain titles aren't doing well.

    In a industry that is becoming more and more filled with novice comic book writers getting some tips with continuity, story flow, character progression, and marketing tactics for these books from fans who have been reading them longer than they have been writing them, will probably do more good then continuing to watch them set a match to the whole industry.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-19-2019 at 09:25 PM.
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  5. #95
    Fantastic Member Flashback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    According to the wiki (again not a reliable source) Comicsgate is still going on. So I'm still not following you there.
    Dragonschi the event known as Comicsgate (CG) is something that developed thru the internet. I can’t go to The New York times and pull an article on this phenomenon because frankly this wasn’t that important, which also means I can’t get you a reliable source. Yes, CG is still going but it isn’t that prevalent as it once was.

    It also never mentioned disgruntled fans. But more made it sound like a hate movement.
    CG were started by disgruntled fans who weren’t interested by what Marvel was doing and they thought it was ruining comics. It started in forums then YouTube until it became a movement with the so called “mentality of trying to "save" an industry.” The movement became more toxic as time went on and what went from using social media to criticize a series or character became attacks on the writers themselves. Some writers took issue to the less than helpful criticism they were receiving about their work and spoke back. Adding more fuel to the fire.


    And once again I'm saying COMICSGATE has no barring CURRENT SALES or POOR STORYTELLING/MARKETING PRACTICES.
    I agree with you too. CG “has no barring CURRENT SALES or POOR STORYTELLING/MARKETING PRACTICES” and I’m not saying they do.

    I'm still at a loss as to why you even brought it up
    Now, the reason I brought CG up in the first place was due to your response to “The Negitive Zone”, when you suggested that fans should find out why Marvel is selling so low, and should use social media to voice their complains to marvel. As I mention earlier CG, used this similar tactic and it accomplished nothing but only worsen the relationship between writers and comic fans.

    There was also the bit towards the end that sounded as a rallying call where you said “In short at this point as a whole Superhero Comic Book Readers need to say ENOUGH.”

    One voice in the darkness is barely heard. But a group of voices can carry over mountain tops.
    Which reminded me of the last time some upset fans got together to protest on social media about Marvel. Hence the joke about “and we know how that went down. lol”
    Last edited by Flashback; 05-20-2019 at 12:42 AM.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Kinda unfortunate to see Black Panther doing so poorly considering Coates had a great concept with Intergalactic Wakanda but just hasn't made it work. I don't think any book should be that decompressed with little payoff. The first arc before the relaunch was solid and actually quite good if read in one sitting but it seems like he's regressing on this story. Which is sad to see considering his Captain America book is hitting all the right notes even if there are still some pacing problems.
    That's the funny thing, his Captain America is good, his Black Panther is terrible.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Dragonschi the event known as Comicsgate (CG) is something that developed thru the internet. I can’t go to The New York times and pull an article on this phenomenon because frankly this wasn’t that important, which also means I can’t get you a reliable source. Yes, CG is still going but it isn’t that prevalent as it once was.



    CG were started by disgruntled fans who weren’t interested by what Marvel was doing and they thought it was ruining comics. It started in forums then YouTube until it became a movement with the so called “mentality of trying to "save" an industry.” The movement became more toxic as time went on and what went from using social media to criticize a series or character became attacks on the writers themselves. Some writers took issue to the less than helpful criticism they were receiving about their work and spoke back. Adding more fuel to the fire.




    I agree with you too. CG “has no barring CURRENT SALES or POOR STORYTELLING/MARKETING PRACTICES” and I’m not saying they do.



    Now, the reason I brought CG up in the first place was due to your response to “The Negitive Zone”, when you suggested that fans should find out why Marvel is selling so low, and should use social media to voice their complains to marvel. As I mention earlier CG, used this similar tactic and it accomplished nothing but only worsen the relationship between writers and comic fans.

    There was also the bit towards the end that sounded as a rallying call where you said “In short at this point as a whole Superhero Comic Book Readers need to say ENOUGH.”



    Which reminded me of the last time some upset fans got together to protest on social media about Marvel. Hence the joke about “and we know how that went down. lol”
    Is Comicsgate still a thing?

    The thing is a joke comprised of jokers that are really bigoted.

    I recently heard that some of their members are trying to get trans creators kicked off social media platforms by misgendering themselves. Like, what sort of clowns are these?
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  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Dragonschi the event known as Comicsgate (CG) is something that developed thru the internet. I can’t go to The New York times and pull an article on this phenomenon because frankly this wasn’t that important, which also means I can’t get you a reliable source. Yes, CG is still going but it isn’t that prevalent as it once was.



    CG were started by disgruntled fans who weren’t interested by what Marvel was doing and they thought it was ruining comics. It started in forums then YouTube until it became a movement with the so called “mentality of trying to "save" an industry.” The movement became more toxic as time went on and what went from using social media to criticize a series or character became attacks on the writers themselves. Some writers took issue to the less than helpful criticism they were receiving about their work and spoke back. Adding more fuel to the fire.




    I agree with you too. CG “has no barring CURRENT SALES or POOR STORYTELLING/MARKETING PRACTICES” and I’m not saying they do.



    Now, the reason I brought CG up in the first place was due to your response to “The Negitive Zone”, when you suggested that fans should find out why Marvel is selling so low, and should use social media to voice their complains to marvel. As I mention earlier CG, used this similar tactic and it accomplished nothing but only worsen the relationship between writers and comic fans.

    There was also the bit towards the end that sounded as a rallying call where you said “In short at this point as a whole Superhero Comic Book Readers need to say ENOUGH.”



    Which reminded me of the last time some upset fans got together to protest on social media about Marvel. Hence the joke about “and we know how that went down. lol”
    I largely agree with what you're saying here. Tom Brevoort used to get a lot of questions about sales on his formspring and he basically used to reject them because the people asking don't have complete sales figures. It's almost a complete waste of time.

    The whole "comics are bad" discussion is a complete non-starter. Quality is entirely subjective. Not to mention that equating sales solely to quality doesn't make sense.

    That's basically suggesting that all low selling titles are not selling because they;re bad while ignoring an entire litany of factors that could affect sales. That means that all independent titles and/or new characters are rubbish because they sell poorly, it just doesn't add up.

    Marvel and DC are putting out a lot of good stuff today and yes some of them don't sell but quite clearly a lot of them do and the ones that do are not always the best. According to Diamond's estimates, Tom King's Batman is the best selling on-going superhero title today, I personally find the book very boring.
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  9. #99
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Dragonschi the event known as Comicsgate (CG) is something that developed thru the internet. I can’t go to The New York times and pull an article on this phenomenon because frankly this wasn’t that important, which also means I can’t get you a reliable source. Yes, CG is still going but it isn’t that prevalent as it once was.



    CG were started by disgruntled fans who weren’t interested by what Marvel was doing and they thought it was ruining comics. It started in forums then YouTube until it became a movement with the so called “mentality of trying to "save" an industry.” The movement became more toxic as time went on and what went from using social media to criticize a series or character became attacks on the writers themselves. Some writers took issue to the less than helpful criticism they were receiving about their work and spoke back. Adding more fuel to the fire.




    I agree with you too. CG “has no barring CURRENT SALES or POOR STORYTELLING/MARKETING PRACTICES” and I’m not saying they do.



    Now, the reason I brought CG up in the first place was due to your response to “The Negitive Zone”, when you suggested that fans should find out why Marvel is selling so low, and should use social media to voice their complains to marvel. As I mention earlier CG, used this similar tactic and it accomplished nothing but only worsen the relationship between writers and comic fans.

    There was also the bit towards the end that sounded as a rallying call where you said “In short at this point as a whole Superhero Comic Book Readers need to say ENOUGH.”



    Which reminded me of the last time some upset fans got together to protest on social media about Marvel. Hence the joke about “and we know how that went down. lol”
    And now the conversation has boiled down to “ If you want to get more involved or disagree with how things are being done you look and probably are Comicsgate”.

    Its a strawman. Im no longer entertaining it. Because while we twiddle our thumbs over some other group who has no effect on Marvel we are closing in on another month of low sales. Another month of superhero comics shoveling the dirt to its on grave.

    Moving forward I personally am only talking about things we can do. If anyone think that makes me or anyone else comicsgate then your logic is probably screwed up and I have no need to concern myself with their distracting input.

    If you don’t like my ideas hit me with alternatives. Lets talk about it. Don’t hit me with some invisible clause that makes you apart of some alleged hatemovent, that no one is allowed to really talk about, or is even sure is a real thing.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-20-2019 at 02:57 AM.
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  10. #100
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I largely agree with what you're saying here. Tom Brevoort used to get a lot of questions about sales on his formspring and he basically used to reject them because the people asking don't have complete sales figures. It's almost a complete waste of time.

    The whole "comics are bad" discussion is a complete non-starter. Quality is entirely subjective. Not to mention that equating sales solely to quality doesn't make sense.

    That's basically suggesting that all low selling titles are not selling because they;re bad while ignoring an entire litany of factors that could affect sales. That means that all independent titles and/or new characters are rubbish because they sell poorly, it just doesn't add up.

    Marvel and DC are putting out a lot of good stuff today and yes some of them don't sell but quite clearly a lot of them do and the ones that do are not always the best. According to Diamond's estimates, Tom King's Batman is the best selling on-going superhero title today, I personally find the book very boring.

    This would have some validity if other parts of the industry were failing. They are not. In fact other places in the industry are performing better than they have before.

    Not only that in are in an Era where superhero comics should be selling better then they ever have before; With the amount of exposure they have, that is on a level that has never been reached, they are failing. So while other industries outside of superhero comics have shown excess in revenue put in the same situation, superhero comics is the exception to the rule? Nah, the quality is showing through.

    Something for sure is going on because at the very least the numbers show that the people who would normally be buying books at a increase aren’t even doing so. That is clear by the data and with popularity of the characters as a whole right now. The only thing indicative of them not purchasing is the Content, the Quality, and/or the Price Tag. Normally, consumers reject things when two or more of those things are under performing and keeping them from buying/making a buying decision.

    Ergo dismissing quality dismisses millions of years of human behavior.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-20-2019 at 04:58 AM.
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  11. #101
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    This would have some vaildity of other parts of the industry were failing. They are not. In fact other places innthe industry are perfoming better than they have before.
    What parts of the industry are doing well? We are talking about the direct market, right? Lots of independent comics sales have cratered leading to relaunches of previously popular titles like Transformers and X-O Manowar.

    Not only that in are in an Era where comics should be selling better then they ever have before. The amount of exposure they have is on a level that has never been reached. So while other industries have shown excess in revenue put in the same situation superhero comics is the exception to the rule? Nah, the quality is showing through
    Yes, they should be more popular but the only issue isn't the quality.
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  12. #102

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    I don't think that comics aren't selling today because they are worse than what was previously published.

    I think they're falling into the same trap that soap operas did: their audiences are dying off or leaving the hobby and there are not enough new fans to replace them.

    In other words, it's simple attrition of the audience.

    Then, the audience that DOES remain becomes more vocal about the stuff they don't like. So, the writers are caught between trying new things to keep their existing fans interested, but with enough continuity porn to appeal to their nostalgic memories. Also, both industries are known for trolling their fans and deliberately doing things to shock/upset them because they believe that a fanbase that is neutral/complacent is bad.

    The solution for the comics industry, as I stated earlier, is to do more of what DC is doing with DC Ink and DC Zoom -- create a new book format to be sold in venues outside of the LCS. The stories should be easily accessible, done-in-one, and have no continuity with other books so they can be read in any order and at any time.

    Have writers and artists that are fresh new voices who can provide new takes on the characters and who have a following with the YA bookstore market. Do NOT hire the same people who write and draw the comics to do the bookstore projects. Those projects need writers who know how to write an absorbing done-in-one 200 page story and artists who don't draw in an overly complex manner that the average non-comics fan might find offputting. In other words, not a ton of overlapping, odd-shaped panels where you have to search for the next panel in the story.

    Maybe try doing a novel with spot illustrations throughout the book rather than a full-on illustrated story.

    Ultimately, it's the CHARACTERS that matter, not the comic magazine format. For the bookstore market, abandon the floppy and create formats that are bookstore-compatible that address what appeals to bookstore browsers. The bookstore customer is different from the LCS pull list customer. It's the bookstore market that needs to be better developed. There's really not much more they can do with the LCS.
    Last edited by Comic-Reader Lad; 05-20-2019 at 11:16 AM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    This would have some validity if other parts of the industry were failing. They are not. In fact other places in the industry are performing better than they have before.

    Not only that in are in an Era where superhero comics should be selling better then they ever have before; With the amount of exposure they have, that is on a level that has never been reached, they are failing. So while other industries outside of superhero comics have shown excess in revenue put in the same situation, superhero comics is the exception to the rule? Nah, the quality is showing through.

    Something for sure is going on because at the very least the numbers show that the people who would normally be buying books at a increase aren’t even doing so. That is clear by the data and with popularity of the characters as a whole right now. The only thing indicative of them not purchasing is the Content, the Quality, and/or the Price Tag. Normally, consumers reject things when two or more of those things are under performing and keeping them from buying/making a buying decision.

    Ergo dismissing quality dismisses millions of years of human behavior.
    I'm not so certain about that. (Essentially the quality being a truly determining factor)

    A simple example of that is the Michael Bay Transformer movies, which is widely ridiculed for it's quality. Yet even the last movie sold better than something like John Wick 2, even though most will agree that John Wick 2 was a much better movie.

    That's not to say that quality is completely meaningless. But I don't think quality, which is extremely subjective, is enough for almost an entire market to crash.

  14. #104
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leo619 View Post
    I'm not so certain about that. (Essentially the quality being a truly determining factor)

    A simple example of that is the Michael Bay Transformer movies, which is widely ridiculed for it's quality. Yet even the last movie sold better than something like John Wick 2, even though most will agree that John Wick 2 was a much better movie.

    That's not to say that quality is completely meaningless. But I don't think quality, which is extremely subjective, is enough for almost an entire market to crash.
    This would fall under "Content and Price Tag"


    Transformers is mindless FUN content for a price many people are willing pay.
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    What parts of the industry are doing well? We are talking about the direct market, right? Lots of independent comics sales have cratered leading to relaunches of previously popular titles like Transformers and X-O Manowar.



    Yes, they should be more popular but the only issue isn't the quality.
    Crowdfunded Independent Superhero/ Superhero related books are doing surprisingly well as well as Manga, which dabbles in the same wheel house.

    Your right quality isn't the only issue. Content, Quality, and now Price Tag are all current issues in Mainstream Superhero comics.
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