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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I think comic book sales are a mess in just about everything but I trust Marvel knows what we're doing as opposed to some fans looking at sales figures...

    Honestly, discussing sales never seems to lead anywhere good.

    Just remember guys, nobody's reading our posts and taking notes. Marvel doesn't care what we have to say about sales figures so really what's the point?
    Theres really no point to be honest because we don't even have the complete sales picture. Diamond's rankings does show some indicators (titles that generally rank low are cancelled) but it doesn't provide the full picture.

    Diamond only releases ranking and people extrapolate. Theres an argument to be made that some sales are being made outside the direct market (I suspect that's why titles like Moon Girl are still in print).
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Neither Marvel nor DC are found in the top sellers in Graphic Novels in books stores. Most of that money is coming from Manga and junior fiction. Even the superhero movie tie-ins is rather isolated and mostly involves old reprints or luxury editions, and there is no sign it leads to return purchases. There is definitely a market there, but the low selling floppies are losing money just by being printed, if Marvel wants the book store they need to focus on product designed for the book store. Self-contained stories with almost no reference to continuity from other stories (does not mean characters cannot guest star.)

    As for the rest, we are not saying anything all that different. You just don't think Marvel sees the Diamond figures as important, that's fine.
    See this is where everyone gets confused. Graphic novel sales are large enough that they don't need to be at the top of the charts to be significant. Especially when compared to the direct market floppy sales. We are looking at a forest and saying Marvel only has small percentage of trees in that forest. The forest is pretty big, we just can't see the detail in the darkness. The only people that can are also dictating the way books get released in the direct market. They are working with figures and trends we can't see.

    We can see some of the results. The anomalies. The way certain books survive and the way certain books get commissioned well ahead of upcoming movies. If cynics want to claim that these are just stabs in the dark, that is because it is dark to them. It isn't dark to the publisher.

    Likewise, listening to a store owner regards movie synergy or marketing to a wider demographic is like listening to a hot dog concession guy who doesn't know there is a sausage discount warehouse just around the corner. He knows what his customers like, he has very little knowledge of the wider market for sausages.

    Take for example Aaron's Doctor Strange. Not only was it commissioned so that it could have a couple of trades available when the movie arrived, it deals with the loss of magic. Surely the next Doctor Strange movie will have to deal with the loss of the Time Stone? It is entirely possible that the much derided status quo change for Strange (not derided by writers incidentally) was based on long planned forward knowledge. Everyone assumes they don't get this information. The pundits prefer to see conflict everywhere. The writers may not but perhaps the Board direct the EiC and his editors to move in certain directions and have a hand on the shape of these things. Why? Because some synergy, nowadays mostly thematic synergy, almost certainly pays. We can see this kind of forward planning all of the time if we care to study what happened in retrospect.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 05-17-2019 at 05:17 AM.

  3. #78
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    As someone who lived through the nineties crash, I disagree.
    Yeah, there's always the chance of them massively screwing up, but sometimes all we can do.

  4. #79
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Take for example Aaron's Doctor Strange. Not only was it commissioned so that it could have a couple of trades available when the movie arrived, it deals with the loss of magic. Surely the next Doctor Strange movie will have to deal with the loss of the Time Stone? It is entirely possible that the much derided status quo change for Strange (not derided by writers incidentally) was based on long planned forward knowledge. Everyone assumes they don't get this information. The pundits prefer to see conflict everywhere. The writers may not but perhaps the Board direct the EiC and his editors to move in certain directions and have a hand on the shape of these things. Why? Because some synergy, nowadays mostly thematic synergy, almost certainly pays. We can see this kind of forward planning all of the time if we care to study what happened in retrospect.
    Well, yeah, they keep de-powering him .

    Although I don't see Aaron's run jiving much with whatever they do with MCU Strange. They're two very different interpretations of the character.

  5. #80
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Rob Liefeld has something to say about the comic sales:

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  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Rob Liefeld has something to say about the comic sales:
    Hardly news. Nobody is claiming that variants are not a key part of the direct market. Of course they drive sales. They are by no means the only sales driver, and their existence is primarily a form of promotion and the stores are the ones who demand them most. What this adds to the debate about non direct market influences on the behaviour of the big two’s choices over direct market cancellation numbers and commission strategies is minimal to zero.

  7. #82
    Incredible Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Rob Liefeld has something to say about the comic sales:

    You're wrong Dragon, and here is the proof.
    Gimmick covers are okay as long as they aren't holograms.
    Holograms: Evil. Bad for the industry. Lurks in the shadows. Bringer of the end times.
    Variants: Good for the industry. Cures all diseases. As wholesome as puppies and kittens and apple pie on a warm summer day.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  8. #83
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    You're wrong Dragon, and here is the proof.
    Gimmick covers are okay as long as they aren't holograms.
    Holograms: Evil. Bad for the industry. Lurks in the shadows. Bringer of the end times.
    Variants: Good for the industry. Cures all diseases. As wholesome as puppies and kittens and apple pie on a warm summer day.
    LMAO

    I see what you did there.


    Anyway, only reason I keep banging this drum is because it is waaaaay past time we as a community stop putting up with this. A large chunk of the people "running" Marvel and by extension the entire comic book industry do not care. It shows in their writing and how they behave. It shows in their practices and even in some of the half truths that they tell. If fans do not say "hey you guys need to do better as a whole" make some noise in their direction things will keep chugging along until Marvel drives themselves off a bridge.

    I understand too that this post probably will get deleted just by the large slant this website has taken over the years but I hope that whatever monitor doing the deed realizes that they aren't helping anything and that by taking this overtly passive, go along with it stance that they to have become part of the problem. They also need to ask themselves when the industry finally dies and their is no more superhero comics to talk about is the amount of support they have from the people on this forum who currently visit, enough to sustain them. Or will they too disappear as the industry did. Where will CBR be then?
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-18-2019 at 10:04 AM.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    Neither Marvel nor DC are found in the top sellers in Graphic Novels in books stores. Most of that money is coming from Manga and junior fiction. Even the superhero movie tie-ins is rather isolated and mostly involves old reprints or luxury editions, and there is no sign it leads to return purchases.
    As for the rest, we are not saying anything all that different. You just don't think Marvel sees the Diamond figures as important, that's fine.
    CORRECT.

    However there is a reason for that-all those manga are available in far more places than DC or Marvel trades.
    My Hero Academia-I can find that at every store including the library. I can't say that for a book like say Cyborg, Nova, Jean Gray, Storm, Blade and so on.

    There is definitely a market there, but the low selling floppies are losing money just by being printed, if Marvel wants the book store they need to focus on product designed for the book store.
    A low selling floppy is not losing money if it only gets printed when there are orders. Marvel is not going to make 100,000 Moon Girl books. Because if that was the case we would NOT be seeing 2nd to 7th printings of books.


    Self-contained stories with almost no reference to continuity from other stories (does not mean characters cannot guest star.)
    You do understand that back in the stone ages-you could pick up a book and just READ it. Nobody cared about previous history. So why would that be important now?


    For example most comic stores swear that movies donít sell books, and yet over and over the trade portfolio is built up to cross promote movies. This is a clear indication that they do sell movie related books but not through the direct market.
    The reason some of them say that is because they don't CARE for who is being used in those movies and tv shows.
    You don't hear them say that when it's BATMAN, SUPERMAN, WW & Peter Parker. Nor with Simpsons, Dr Who, TMNT, other tv properties and especially My Little Pony. Nor Shazam or Green Arrow.
    Yet they will cry that when it's Black Panther or Miles or Black Lightning.


    Marvel doesn't care what we have to say about sales figures so really what's the point?
    Because you have had creators harassed, bullied and lives THREATENED over it. Especially POC, LGBTQ & women.
    Go through Gail Simone or Magdalene Visaggio's Twitter feeds. That is ALL they hear from trolls.


    As for variant covers-folks LOVE To bash Marvel about it yet no one is calling the OTHERS who do it.

    Zombie Tramp averages 9 variants a MONTH. A 4K book. Zenescope Entertainment say HI. So does Dynamite Comics as does Archie.

  10. #85
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    LMAO

    I see what you did there.


    Anyway, only reason I keep banging this drum is because it is waaaaay past time we as a community stop putting up with this. A large chunk of the people "running" Marvel and by extension the entire comic book industry do not care. It shows in their writing and how they behave. It shows in their practices and even in some of the half truths that they tell. If fans do not say "hey you guys need to do better as a whole" make some noise in their direction things will keep chugging along until Marvel drives themselves off a bridge.

    I understand too that this post probably will get deleted just by the large slant this website has taken over the years but I hope that whatever monitor doing the deed realizes that they aren't helping anything and that by taking this overtly passive, go along with it stance that they to have become part of the problem. They also need to ask themselves when the industry finally dies and their is no more superhero comics to talk about is the amount of support they have from the people on this forum who currently visit, enough to sustain them. Or will they too disappear as the industry did. Where will CBR be then?
    So do you have anything that amounts to a plan other than saying "this is bad" to comic book professionals who know more than you? No offense, but I think the mentality of trying to "save" an industry has led to toxic groups. I'm not saying you're toxic, you seem alright.

    I don't think being a fan is enough, they're not going to listen to us and what are we supposed to do when they do that? Not buy the comics I enjoy?

  11. #86
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    Kinda unfortunate to see Black Panther doing so poorly considering Coates had a great concept with Intergalactic Wakanda but just hasn't made it work. I don't think any book should be that decompressed with little payoff. The first arc before the relaunch was solid and actually quite good if read in one sitting but it seems like he's regressing on this story. Which is sad to see considering his Captain America book is hitting all the right notes even if there are still some pacing problems.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    CORRECT.

    However there is a reason for that-all those manga are available in far more places than DC or Marvel trades.
    My Hero Academia-I can find that at every store including the library. I can't say that for a book like say Cyborg, Nova, Jean Gray, Storm, Blade and so on.
    It's the primary job of Marvel as a publisher to make sure that their products are made available in the maximum number of places and in a format readers want to buy. Instead the Manga publishers like Viz and Kodansha are running circles around Marvel. Where Manga is better quality, has more content and is cheaper to buy then a Marvel trade, the economics become even more favourable for Manga when compared to single issue Marvel comics. Yet the geniuses in charge of Marvel remain complacent, the best they can come up with is to invent a fake #1000 in the hope of selling 1 million copies while the market continues to shift against them

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    So do you have anything that amounts to a plan other than saying "this is bad" to comic book professionals who know more than you? No offense, but I think the mentality of trying to "save" an industry has led to toxic groups. I'm not saying you're toxic, you seem alright.

    I don't think being a fan is enough, they're not going to listen to us and what are we supposed to do when they do that? Not buy the comics I enjoy?
    The term "toxic" is way over used in todays culture, to begin with.

    What fans need to do is start pointing out why there books aren't selling now verse when they where actually selling before.

    If you see a book where the preview art has characters standing around for 3 whole pages either eating, or literally insulating penis measuring among men that would be a great opportunity to hit social media and go "Hey Marvel No body is laughing and gets excited about dudes standing in a circle talking but not talking about their Johnson's" .

    We need to let them know regardless of who is writing or what character is in the book that when its been cancelled for the 3rd or 4th time that people are not interested in this and then point them in another direction of characters who can fill the same role but may have a larger fan base. Scarlet Witch for Squirrel girl type deal. (just an example not a real comparison)

    In short at this point as a whole Superhero Comic Book Readers need to say ENOUGH. Because if we don't the people currently operating within who are only in it to move themselves forward or push whatever agenda will drive these characters and books into the ground and ruin it for all of us. Disney will only put up with low sales for so long. When they pull that cord what comes next will not be good for anyone.

    One voice in the darkness is barley heard. But a group of voices can carry over mountain tops.
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  14. #89
    Fantastic Member Flashback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    The term "toxic" is way over used in todays culture, to begin with.

    What fans need to do is start pointing out why there books aren't selling now verse when they where actually selling before.

    If you see a book where the preview art has characters standing around for 3 whole pages either eating, or literally insulating penis measuring among men that would be a great opportunity to hit social media and go "Hey Marvel No body is laughing and gets excited about dudes standing in a circle talking but not talking about their Johnson's" .

    We need to let them know regardless of who is writing or what character is in the book that when its been cancelled for the 3rd or 4th time that people are not interested in this and then point them in another direction of characters who can fill the same role but may have a larger fan base. Scarlet Witch for Squirrel girl type deal. (just an example not a real comparison)

    In short at this point as a whole Superhero Comic Book Readers need to say ENOUGH. Because if we don't the people currently operating within who are only in it to move themselves forward or push whatever agenda will drive these characters and books into the ground and ruin it for all of us. Disney will only put up with low sales for so long. When they pull that cord what comes next will not be good for anyone.

    One voice in the darkness is barley heard. But a group of voices can carry over mountain tops.
    Hm...I can't say why, but this sounds eerily familiar

    Oh wait!

    It's Comicsgate and we know how that went down. lol
    Last edited by Flashback; 05-19-2019 at 04:21 PM. Reason: Added a lol to indicate I'm only half serious.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashback View Post
    Hm...I can't say why, but this sounds eerily familiar

    Oh wait!

    It's Comicsgate and we know how that went down. lol
    How did it go down?

    What I'm talking about has nothing to do with anything BUT sales numbers and clear underperforming practices. You don't sell books...heck you don't sell anything by showing boring weird content no one will really get excited about.

    Thats just common sense.
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