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  1. #136
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    That's a strange stat. Where do you get that information? Can you actually prove this or are you just guessing or minimising the direct market just because it suits your narrative?
    As has already been pointed out, the information is the very statistics you provided. Numbers for actual superhero comics are down, way down. The only way that the comics industry was able to record growth is through some creative accounting. Most notably by using a new 'other' category which is dominated by crowdfunding comics that Marvel and DC have no control over. Not to mention all the Manga that continues to outsell superhero comics but still gets counted next to Marvel anyway. So, you take away the Manga and the crowdfunding and the sorry state of the comics industry is revealed, a moribund business that would rather deny the problems it’s facing then come-up with any solutions.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I know about comic stores are closing down but that doesn't directly relate to the superhero comics losing money for Marvel. Not to mention that comic sales are down across the board and frankly, some retailers simply don't fully understand the business they're engaged in (it's harsh but it's true) and it's something that Hibbs himself pointed to. If a retailer has previously sold 10 copes of Spider-man but continues to order the same copies when sales have declined, then that fellow has made a fatal business error.

    I'm not saying sales aren't down but they are down across the board (if other publishers sales were higher, they'd simply shift their orders to bring in more product from other competing publishers). They don't make their money solely from selling Marvel comics.
    The Primary outlet Super Hero comics are sold is still the Comic Book Store. If stores are closing its a indicator that they are loosing money. Look at the sales figures at the beginning of this thread.

    You do realize that I have been saying that Sales are down for super hero comics across the board right? That the industry for Super hero comic is dying. You can go back ....to what 3 pages of content? And see that I have been saying that?

    Marvel and DC is the biggest draw into those stores. The market has always run to the extent of Marvel and DC bring them in and other books from other publisher get sold as additive to costumers wanting Marvel or DC books. They have the biggest companies and the most exposures on a level none of the other brands can compete with.

    From the article you quoted:

    Honestly, publishers and creators will only do what they think they can get away with. I’m going to spend a bit talking about publisher behavior in a minute, but, to a person, we enabled those behaviors! THEY can’t and won’t publish material unless WE buy it! Every single order form we turn in is a vote for the future that we want, and a lot of us have been voting actively against our best interests for many years.

    I can’t especially blame the publishers for trying to meet our “demand”: if you could get an extra 20% in sales by paying $500 to an artist, and doing a plate change at the printer, why wouldn’t you? But, as with absolutely everything in the post-Heroes World Direct Market, we lack absolutely anyone willing to stand up and say “No, that’s a little too far”; to protect us against our own worst impulses. All Markets need brakes and guardrails.


    The bolded part is what i referring to earlier about printing to order. If orders are too ridiculously low for a book, Marvel will simply cancel and not even release it because they'll only lose money on it.

    Also according to Brian Hibbs:

    We have, as I see it, two major problems at the publisher level: one of content, and one of the amount of product. In terms of content, while I think that we’re at a golden age of comics right now, with more amazing material being published than ever before, the base level of quality of our core periodical product in the direct market – the driver of sales and success in our market, both in the superhero universe material as well as most licensed and creator-owned titles – is at a near-historical nadir.

    I am not at all convinced that over the last two decades or so that even the minimum amount of effort has been put into developing editorial staff and support at the largest publishers. Most Editors are desultory at best at that skill set: instead publishers have been emphasizing traffic management and corporate synergy as the most important skills to develop. Comics are written to fill arbitrary holes in production schedules, rather than to be the best stories they can be. Creators are encouraged to write for page counts of pre-scheduled collections, rather than crafting each individual periodical release to be satisfying in and of itself, and only allowing the best of that material to go on to permanent book format collection.
    Digital is ancillary, so I expect sales targets to be far less than print (not to mention there aren't any print costs for them).


    Hibbs makes some interesting points but what stands out to me from his statement is that 1) the quality of comics are pretty high right now (a view that i second) 2) the business back end of the business needs work at the major publishers (i also agree with this).
    As to this... didn't included the full article link forth coming. But off the bat Retailers have no control over the quality or the content of books. That is what is hurting the industry. He does mention his opinion on the quality but again he also admits to this

    National sales are very poor – there are comics in the national top 100 that aren’t even selling twenty thousand copies. A significant number of stores have closed — perhaps as many as 10% of outlets.
    I am not at all convinced that over the last two decades or so that even the minimum amount of effort has been put into developing editorial staff and support at the largest publishers. Most Editors are desultory at best at that skill set: instead publishers have been emphasizing traffic management and corporate synergy as the most important skills to develop. Comics are written to fill arbitrary holes in production schedules, rather than to be the best stories they can be. Creators are encouraged to write for page counts of pre-scheduled collections, rather than crafting each individual periodical release to be satisfying in and of itself, and only allowing the best of that material to go on to permanent book format collection.
    Acknowledging, in the politest way possible that the staff are either not doing their jobs are unqualified to do them.

    Content is, of course, the thing we retailers can impact the least. “Make better comics” has long been a battle cry, but its out of our direct wheelhouse. Perhaps the cry should be to “Make better EDITORS”?
    There it is again.

    If it had the Marvel logo on it, it sold. But today? At my store there’s almost a quarter of Marvel’s output from month to month I no longer have the customer interest to even shelf a single copy.
    Some more


    Marvel's Predatory practices.
    Want a clear and current example of Marvel’s preposterous “flood the zone” strategy? “War of the Realms” is supposed to be their major Q2 project in 2019, but in the first month alone they’re asking us to buy into TWO issues of the series being released with no sales data, as well as FOUR different tie-in-mini-series. All six of these comics (which are built around a six issue storyline) will require final orders from us before we’ve sold a single comic to an actual reader. Is there anyone in this room thinks that this is good? That this is sustainable? That this will sell more comics to more readers? That this will sell any copies to people who aren’t already on board Marvel’s periodicals already?
    This is, in no way, a healthy state of affairs, and it exists at every level of the market: from the top at Marvel, where the aforementioned “War of the Realms” had seventeen different covers on the first issue at initial solicitation, and they’ve also added another eight more at FOC (after, of course, we’ve presold our sets and such) – all of this on a SIX DOLLAR comic. A customer who actually wanted all 25 copies of that one single release would be asked to spend nearly $150. On a single issue of a single comic. This is not a tenable or rational place for us to be as buyers of non-returnable goods – even at a wholesale price of like $68 is far too insane for us to any risk. This is predatory behavior on the behalf of the largest publisher.
    Listen to me, publishers: this behavior needs to stop! If you can’t sell enough copies of your comic to fit your business goals with one single cover, then you probably shouldn’t be publishing it in the first place!
    And there is even more here:https://www.comicsbeat.com/retailer-...mics-industry/

    The source Bounding into Comics got their info from.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-21-2019 at 03:35 PM.
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  3. #138
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    well good for you if you are not just talking about changing the industry abstractly but actually actively trying to change the outlook of people. if you cite your efforts and names of creators who agree with your view then most people will take you seriously instead of dismissing your concerns.
    Pass on that. My intentions is not to call out the creators I have spoken with because the conversations I have had are between me and them. Not only that but there are literal crazy malicious people who would make it hard on them and potentially me.

    as for my doing anything about it I am not pretending to be the guardian or caretaker of the comic industry so I am pretty much indifferent to the issue. I will enjoy it so long as it's possible. if the comic industry folds up there are always other viable alternatives for entertainment.
    Truth be told I really don't need anyone who disagrees with me to believe or take action. I need the doer and the people who actually care about Super Hero comics to see and potentially take action. Even if it's just one person who see's whats going on and is not ready to just role over and die. That person can get someone else and then the next person may have more influence then the last. Marvel and DC have been a major part of my life for my whole life and many others. Those people are the ones I care about.

    Not the people who shrug and go whateva's. Since those are the same people who broke the industry to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    It's interesting that you claim to not know what ComicsGate is but use a source that wades knee deep in the filth.
    What exactly makes that website Comicsgate?

    The comicsgate boogie man is getting real ridiculous.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-21-2019 at 09:11 PM.
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  4. #139
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    As has already been pointed out, the information is the very statistics you provided. Numbers for actual superhero comics are down, way down. The only way that the comics industry was able to record growth is through some creative accounting. Most notably by using a new 'other' category which is dominated by crowdfunding comics that Marvel and DC have no control over. Not to mention all the Manga that continues to outsell superhero comics but still gets counted next to Marvel anyway. So, you take away the Manga and the crowdfunding and the sorry state of the comics industry is revealed, a moribund business that would rather deny the problems it’s facing then come-up with any solutions.
    This.

    And thank you for stating it so eloquently.
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  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    We keep hearing the 'throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks' analogy as a criticism. There is nothing wrong with that as a business model as long as you hire talented people to create the stuff you are throwing. If they have the money to do it then what is the problem?
    Because they are doing books that those folks don't like.

    It's KUDOS for doing Flintstones, Hanna Barbara guys or Doom Patrol.
    It's KUDOS for Ahoy Comics & others who create new stuff.
    It's SILENCE when long DEAD properties like Betty Boop, John Carter, Barberalla, Elvira and so on get books.
    It's SILENCE when books like Cellies (a book about a CELL PHONE STORE).

    No ONE asked for ANY of the above-yet no types of FITS, harassment, death threats, youtube hate videos or attacks on wives was done.
    Every single book was THROWN on the wall to see if it sticks. No one demands justification. Store owners are throwing fits and trashing books by name.

    Marvel has DONE every single thing the above companies have done. EVERY SINGLE THING. But they get attacked by those with a CHERRY PICKING AGENDA of hate.

    Getting a job a Marvel used to be something writers and artists had to earn, after years in the industry with a proven track record (read: profitable books) at other comic publishers.
    Dwayne McDuffie spent 20+ years and the creation of Milestone, Damage Control, Static Shock, Justice League Heroes game), 4 DVD movies, editor for Marvel, Justice League cartoon, 13 award nominations including Eisner & EMMY awards, Ben 10 and even wrote PRINCE. Yes the PURPLE ONE HIMSELF. Excluding Milestone's Icon run-McDuffie went from 1991-2007 NOT being a full time regular writer for a book.

    Rob Liefield has ZERO training in writing and art. He started at DC in 1988. He was doing New Mutants in 1989 and co-writing in 1991. Before that he did 1 mini series and 1 issue and a bonus booklet. 3 years.
    John Rodgers had ZERO writing experience in comics. He help write CATWOMAN & TRANSFORMERS movies & Bill Cosby's CBS show Cosby. What did he do on his FIRST writing assignment? Co-create Jaime Reyes.
    Scott McDaniel with ZERO writing experience was able to take over Static Shock from a VETERAN Milestone alum and ruin that book.

    McDuffie had PROVEN success. What happen? He did what you said.

    As for profitable books-hard to have that when certain books or writers are UNWELCOME at certain stores.

    Chuck Dixon will GLADLY tell you that like he did over 35 years ago in his book Strike. A book about a black kid that stores didn't want to sell because it was about a black kid.The only ongoing comic starring a black male post Power Man & Ironfist (1985) and before Deathlok (1991).



    I'm curious as to where people are getting information that comics are losing money.
    Judging by the pile of CERTAIN unsold books. See it's okay for Peter Parker and others to have unsold books. It's okay for them to PACK bins. It's okay for them to be sold at 90% off cover price.
    But it's doomsday when they see 1-2 copies of those nasty SJW books or books by the approve hate list of a certain group.


    I wonder if anyone complaining about Marvel and it's policies have actually tried to approach them or initiated a dialog with them
    Creators are under NO OBLIGATION to listen to anybody. Especially those who DON'T read the books that they bash or attack creators for existing.

  6. #141
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    This.

    And thank you for stating it so eloquently.
    I appreciate the kind word. These sales numbers should illuminate the problems that Marvel is having and they do, if people are willing to look below the surface and really think about where the data is coming from. Manga and crowdfunding can't disguise the fact that readers are turning away from superhero comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Marvel has DONE every single thing the above companies have done. EVERY SINGLE THING. But they get attacked by those with a CHERRY PICKING AGENDA of hate.
    Hate has nothing to do with it, criticisms towards modern Marvel are made out of love. Or more to the point, the central argument is that Marvels current staff are custodians and they should show more respect towards the fantastic tales that are their livelihood. Everyone at Marvel today is standing on the shoulders of giants and they are still coming up short. If they are not careful this could be the last generation of Marvel comics and pop culture will be poorer for it.

  7. #142
    VEGETATIVE INJUSTICE! Kurisu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    What exactly makes that website makes it Comicsgate?

    The comicsgate boogie man is getting real ridiculous.
    If it looks like a duck.

  8. #143
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurisu View Post
    If it looks like a duck.
    Right so everything is comicsgate then. Ergo it probably doesn’t exist.
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  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    The Primary outlet Super Hero comics are sold is still the Comic Book Store. If stores are closing its a indicator that they are loosing money. Look at the sales figures at the beginning of this thread.

    You do realize that I have been saying that Sales are down for super hero comics across the board right? That the industry for Super hero comic is dying. You can go back ....to what 3 pages of content? And see that I have been saying that?

    Marvel and DC is the biggest draw into those stores. The market has always run to the extent of Marvel and DC bring them in and other books from other publisher get sold as additive to costumers wanting Marvel or DC books. They have the biggest companies and the most exposures on a level none of the other brands can compete with.



    As to this... didn't included the full article link forth coming. But off the bat Retailers have no control over the quality or the content of books. That is what is hurting the industry. He does mention his opinion on the quality but again he also admits to this





    Acknowledging, in the politest way possible that the staff are either not doing their jobs are unqualified to do them.



    There it is again.



    Some more


    Marvel's Predatory practices.






    And there is even more here:https://www.comicsbeat.com/retailer-...mics-industry/

    The source Bounding into Comics got their info from.
    If you’re saying that you agree that sales are down across the board than why are you singling out a single publisher (albeit the dominant one) and ignoring the other factors that could account for sales being down? You’ve been saying that Marvel comics should be “better” (at least in your view) to improve sales but if other publishers are putting out good comics and they aren’t selling to whatever standard you assume they should, doesn’t that suggest that the problem isn’t in quality but in the current model that (which i feel) is outdated? Like Hibbs acknowledged, comics are pretty good right now and Marvel especially has experienced a rebound in quality. I can only advise people to read more of what they like and recommend to their friends.

    And none of what was stated in the article indicates in any way shape or form that Marvel is losing money. Sure, some titles might get cancelled but that doesn’t mean that Marvel is losing money. Again, I’m not saying it’s impossible but if there’s nothing to support that assertion other than tangential information (i.e a few stores closing down) than I’m going to have to move on from that point.

    Retailers and businesses as a whole go out of business for myriad reasons. Retailers have no control over content but they 100% have control over what they order. If they over order what people don’t want to buy regardless of the quality then that’s on them. The only other industry that runs a similar model to this “was” the music industry but we’ve seen how that’s involved and left brick and mortar stores behind with some of the largest music stores collapsing, I suspect something similar will happen with the comics industry in the long run and the publishers will simply evolve with it too, the retailers will need to move along with this too.

    Hibbs assertion about creators and editorial is the link (or absence of) between the business side and creative side. I can’t argue against that because it’s very obvious that creators now do indeed right for trades and collections. That’s been the case for almost 20 years now and while it’s a problem for Hibbs and other retailers it’s beneficial for the larger bookstore market.

    As per Marvel’s business practices that’s an entirely different discussion. I honestly can’t say that I support all of Marvel’s business practices but I understand why they do them.

    EDIT: At this point, i think it's best I bow out of this discussion. I don't mind continuing via DM though.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-22-2019 at 04:40 AM.
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  10. #145
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    If you’re saying that you agree that sales are down across the board than why are you singling out a single publisher (albeit the dominant one) and ignoring the other factors that could account for sales being down? You’ve been saying that Marvel comics should be “better” (at least in your view) to improve sales but if other publishers are putting out good comics and they aren’t selling to whatever standard you assume they should, doesn’t that suggest that the problem isn’t in quality but in the current model that (which i feel) is outdated? Like Hibbs acknowledged, comics are pretty good right now and Marvel especially has experienced a rebound in quality. I can only advise people to read more of what they like and recommend to their friends.
    I'm singling out Marvel because it is a Marvel board. I'm singling out Marvel because it they are the ones doing the most damage. I'm singling out Marvel because they are flooding the shelves with books created by unqualified people thereby making the very books bad. I'm singling out Marvel because their practices are hurting other publishers in the business. I'm singling out Marvel because their practices are hurting retailers. I'm singling out Marvel because they are ruining characters that people have loved for ages. I'm singling out Marvel because they seem to be paving the way to their own destruction and taking everyone else with them.

    Most importantly I'm singling out Marvel because I'm a Marvel fan through and through. The very fact that people that there are now people in the company openly admitting that they don't belong their and/or openly show that they barely care about Marvel properties, and yet they are almost pleased by ruining them bugs me. In short I care about Marvel and the stance of essentially kissing their bum while they dance in a house on fire seems like a terrible way cause real change.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-22-2019 at 05:50 AM.
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  11. #146
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    I'm singling out Marvel because it is a Marvel board. I'm singling out Marvel because it they are the ones doing the most damage. I'm singling out Marvel because they are flooding the shelves with books created by unqualified people thereby making the very books bad. I'm singling out Marvel because their practices are hurting other publishers in the business. I'm singling out Marvel because their practices are hurting retailers. I'm singling out Marvel because they are ruining characters that people have loved for ages. I'm singling out Marvel because they seem to be paving the way to their own destruction and taking everyone else with them.

    Most importantly I'm singling out Marvel because I'm a Marvel fan through and through. The very fact that people that there are now people in the company openly admitting that they don't belong their and/or openly show that they barely care about Marvel properties, and yet they are almost pleased by ruining them bugs me. In short I care about Marvel and the stance of essentially kissing their bum while they dance in a house on fire seems like a terrible way cause real change.
    Well, you're free to believe all this. I read a lot of Marvel comics and they're quite good, much more than in previous years to be honest (especially with Back to Basics which has really re-invigorated the line). In fact, I recommend them to my friends as frequently as I can. So, on that point, we're never going to agree because I want to see and help the books I read sell more. That's not to say that I agree with every single creative decision in Marvel's books but i'm pretty selective with what I read right now.

    That being said, you can voice your opinion to a creator who's work you don't like or something you feel is rubbish in the books.

    But allegations that Marvel don't have qualified staff isn't true. I can't think of a single creator in Marvel that doesn't have any previously published work which is a far higher standard than what was employed in the past.

    As per the business practices, sure Marvel do engage in what could be described as problematic tactics but I can fully understand this within the confines of the DM. And no, I don't agree that Marvel is "dragging down the industry" because (again) there's no evidence of this.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-22-2019 at 07:46 AM.
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  12. #147
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    This.

    And thank you for stating it so eloquently.
    It isn't fact though. That is just support from a fellow poster. We don't actually know if superhero comics are at any kind of low, because we have no book channel data, no digital data, no subscription data and no international data. We do know they are definitely not at an all time low because we can point to specific years when they sold much lower numbers overall.

    So again prove your conspiracy theory instead of throwing around empty claims and then using that as an excuse to bash Marvel and everyone that works for Marvel. If it is so obvious then you shouldn't have any problem doing this.

  13. #148
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    I don't think comics are going to die anytime soon, maybe in like 15-20 years but not now. If Marvel goes down then that means the entire industry is done and that's a whole other thing entirely. Certainly more than the "quality" of books or the writers.
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  14. #149
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It isn't fact though. That is just support from a fellow poster. We don't actually know if superhero comics are at any kind of low, because we have no book channel data, no digital data, no subscription data and no international data. We do know they are definitely not at an all time low because we can point to specific years when they sold much lower numbers overall.

    So again prove your conspiracy theory instead of throwing around empty claims and then using that as an excuse to bash Marvel and everyone that works for Marvel. If it is so obvious then you shouldn't have any problem doing this.
    Hey you're the one who decided to post those numbers in the first place, it's not my fault that the truth actually made your arguments look worse. People are tired of hearing excuses about mysterious extra sales channels that will somehow save Marvel, when these supposed windfalls never actually materialise into tangible gains. What we can see is that Marvel comics is down again, month after month, year after year, and management shows no sign of turning things around. Things are not fine and to pretend otherwise is a disservice to Marvel's heritage and failure of resolve in the face of a crisis.
    Last edited by Kintor; 05-22-2019 at 03:49 PM.

  15. #150
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Well, you're free to believe all this. I read a lot of Marvel comics and they're quite good, much more than in previous years to be honest (especially with Back to Basics which has really re-invigorated the line). In fact, I recommend them to my friends as frequently as I can. So, on that point, we're never going to agree because I want to see and help the books I read sell more. That's not to say that I agree with every single creative decision in Marvel's books but i'm pretty selective with what I read right now.

    That being said, you can voice your opinion to a creator who's work you don't like or something you feel is rubbish in the books.

    But allegations that Marvel don't have qualified staff isn't true. I can't think of a single creator in Marvel that doesn't have any previously published work which is a far higher standard than what was employed in the past.

    As per the business practices, sure Marvel do engage in what could be described as problematic tactics but I can fully understand this within the confines of the DM. And no, I don't agree that Marvel is "dragging down the industry" because (again) there's no evidence of this.
    To the bold, the lack of experience at Marvel is actually very true and a very real thing. There are people who are at Marvel/got work at Marvel who have never written a comic bool ever. There are people who are in key positions who knowledge of Marvel before being hired were the Saturday cartoon shows that Marvel produced in the 90's, and thats it. There are people who have been placed on Major Titles of Major Character for the company who wrote all of ONE book and not only that but that book was selling somewhere between 15-20k if I remember correctly.

    Point is they have no experience in superhero comics and it shows. When you look at the sales its more then glaring that its well past time Marvel started trimming the fat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Hey you're the one who decided to post those numbers in the first place, it's not my fault that the truth actually made your arguments look worse. People are tired of hearing excuses about mysterious extra sales channels that will somehow save Marvel, when these supposed windfalls never actually materialise into tangible gains. What we can see is that Marvel comics is down again, month after month, year after year, and management shows no sign of turning things around. Things are not fine and to pretend otherwise is a disservice to Marvel's heritage and failure of resolve in the face of a crisis.
    This! 1000x's this.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 05-23-2019 at 02:36 PM.
    The Human Rocket Nova Prime Appreciation Thread: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...reciation-2019

    Explain The Appeal ~ Hawkman: http://community.comicbookresources....73#post3725173

    Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.

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