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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Hey you're the one who decided to post those numbers in the first place, it's not my fault that the truth actually made your arguments look worse. People are tired of hearing excuses about mysterious extra sales channels that will somehow save Marvel, when these supposed windfalls never actually materialise into tangible gains. What we can see is that Marvel comics is down again, month after month, year after year, and management shows no sign of turning things around.
    Folks are tired of hearing ENTITLEMENT fans whine and complain about stuff they lack full knowledge on.
    What part of there are MULTIPLE ways to get a comic book or trade besides a comic book store is that hard to UNDERSTAND?

    Lets look at an EXAMPLE
    Miles Morales: Spider-Man#6 that came out today. If I wanted that issue HOW would I get it?

    1) Kindle & comiXology for $4
    2) Midtown Comics online $3.99
    3) Ebay has 86 listings with prices ranging from $3 to $35
    4) my comic book store for $3.65 via advance ordering or walking into the store
    5) MARVEL SUBSCRIPTIONS-where you can get a year's worth of books for 40% off. The one I do.

    OH what if I wanted the PREVIOUS issue-
    6) Move Trading-where for Memorial Day they are doing buy 1 get 1 FREE.
    7) Half Price books-where you get the books at half the price or LOWER and they are doing 20% this weekend.
    8) COMIC CONS
    9) AMAZON's marketplace.

    Now lets add trades-
    10) Barnes & Nobles-who LOL sales and discounts and coupons.

    Excluding number 1 & 5-6 -you have your tangible data. Because SOMEONE had to BUY those products.
    Movie Trading Post gets their comics wholesale from OTHER COMIC BOOK STORES. I would say from looking in all those bins DC has the bigger issue than Marvel.

    Things are not fine and to pretend otherwise is a disservice to Marvel's heritage and failure of resolve in the face of a crisis.
    So what is Marvel suppose to do about the other 9 different venues to get books? Because every other company is dealing with that too and their fans are NOT throwing fits about it.

    What crisis? The crisis of the power of CHOICE by the consumer to buy the books at whatever place or price they want?
    The crisis of folks CLAIMING to be fans think getting rid of books with POC, LGBTQ & women will increase sales?

    Removing Miles Morales and flooding the market with more Peter Parker books does not negate those 9 other venues for books. Those 9 venues are more damaging to Peter than Miles. Because his stuff is there in BULK than Miles. You flood the market and guess what it's easier to get that stuff CHEAPER outside a comic book store.

  2. #152
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    To the bold, the lack of experience at Marvel is actually very true and a very real thing. There are people who are at Marvel/got work at Marvel who have never written a comic bool ever. There are people who are in key positions who knowledge of Marvel before being hired were the Saturday cartoon shows that Marvel produced in the 90's, and thats it. There are people who have been placed on Major Titles of Major Character for the company who wrote all of ONE book and not only that but that book was selling somewhere between 15-20k if I remember correctly.

    Point is they have no experience in superhero comics and it shows. When you look at the sales its more then glaring that its well past time Marvel started trimming the fat.

    Since you can't produce any evidence to support what you're saying that's fine. At least I now that there's nothing to show that Marvel is losing money or is hiring unqualified people because virtually all of Marvel's creators have published works. This isn't even a Marvel specific thing because I believe DC implements the same thing with a few exceptions.

    In the past, guys like Claremont didn't even believe in writing comics at all and weren't even hired to write. Same with Stern and Layton. Lobdell wasnt even a writer before he wrote X-men. Guys like Liefeld, Byrne and Mcfarlane were artists that were converted to writers.

    I much prefer the current system where actual writers write comics. Besides, saying a writer sold x amount of books before as a qualification makes absolutely no sense since new guys like Snyder, Spencer, Ewing, Cates and even Hickman (who all wrote comics) were able to turn around and boost sales of the books they are writing. There are exceptions like Coates and Eve Ewing but these guys are established writers already. Why should Marvel pick some "johnny come lately" over an established writer? That doesn't make any sense.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 05-23-2019 at 02:36 PM.
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Folks are tired of hearing ENTITLEMENT fans whine and complain about stuff they lack full knowledge on.
    What part of there are MULTIPLE ways to get a comic book or trade besides a comic book store is that hard to UNDERSTAND?

    Lets look at an EXAMPLE
    Miles Morales: Spider-Man#6 that came out today. If I wanted that issue HOW would I get it?

    1) Kindle & comiXology for $4
    2) Midtown Comics online $3.99
    3) Ebay has 86 listings with prices ranging from $3 to $35
    4) my comic book store for $3.65 via advance ordering or walking into the store
    5) MARVEL SUBSCRIPTIONS-where you can get a year's worth of books for 40% off. The one I do.

    OH what if I wanted the PREVIOUS issue-
    6) Move Trading-where for Memorial Day they are doing buy 1 get 1 FREE.
    7) Half Price books-where you get the books at half the price or LOWER and they are doing 20% this weekend.
    8) COMIC CONS
    9) AMAZON's marketplace.

    Now lets add trades-
    10) Barnes & Nobles-who LOL sales and discounts and coupons.

    Excluding number 1 & 5-6 -you have your tangible data. Because SOMEONE had to BUY those products.
    Movie Trading Post gets their comics wholesale from OTHER COMIC BOOK STORES. I would say from looking in all those bins DC has the bigger issue than Marvel.



    So what is Marvel suppose to do about the other 9 different venues to get books? Because every other company is dealing with that too and their fans are NOT throwing fits about it.

    What crisis? The crisis of the power of CHOICE by the consumer to buy the books at whatever place or price they want?
    The crisis of folks CLAIMING to be fans think getting rid of books with POC, LGBTQ & women will increase sales?

    Removing Miles Morales and flooding the market with more Peter Parker books does not negate those 9 other venues for books. Those 9 venues are more damaging to Peter than Miles. Because his stuff is there in BULK than Miles. You flood the market and guess what it's easier to get that stuff CHEAPER outside a comic book store.
    Exactly.

    I don't know what's so difficult to understand that comics are selling more in other channels than the DM. The info posted by JK was from Comichron, it wasn't from a Marvel site or from a Marvel executive.

    If the industry is expanding through other means, than that's fantastic for the industry and it means more people are buying their comics through different means.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-23-2019 at 12:24 AM.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    I don't think comics are going to die anytime soon, maybe in like 15-20 years but not now. If Marvel goes down then that means the entire industry is done and that's a whole other thing entirely. Certainly more than the "quality" of books or the writers.
    This has been my assertion all along.
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  5. #155
    Incredible Member Kintor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Folks are tired of hearing ENTITLEMENT fans whine and complain about stuff they lack full knowledge on.
    What part of there are MULTIPLE ways to get a comic book or trade besides a comic book store is that hard to UNDERSTAND?

    [...]

    So what is Marvel suppose to do about the other 9 different venues to get books? Because every other company is dealing with that too and their fans are NOT throwing fits about it.

    What crisis? The crisis of the power of CHOICE by the consumer to buy the books at whatever place or price they want?
    Look, consumer feedback is an essential part of every business. Fans are well within their rights as consumers to complain to Marvel when the quality of their products has noticeably decreased compared to previous decades. Right now Marvel comics are just a bad value proposition compared to other forms of entertainment, expensive to buy and frankly boring for the most part, especially compared to the greater offerings in Manga at the moment. So increasingly consumers are exercising their capacity for choice and choosing not to buy Marvel comics, hence the plummeting sales figures year on year. Those mystery +9 sales channels arne't worth a damn when consumers don't want to buy what Marvel is selling anyway.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Since you can't produce any evidence to support what you're saying that's fine. At least I now that there's nothing to show that Marvel is losing money or is hiring unqualified people because virtually all of Marvel's creators have published works. This isn't even a Marvel specific thing because I believe DC implements the same thing with a few exceptions.

    In the past, guys like Claremont didn't even believe in writing comics at all and weren't even hired to write. Same with Stern and Layton. Lobdell wasnt even a writer before he wrote X-men. Guys like Liefeld, Byrne and Mcfarlane were artists that were converted to writers.

    I much prefer the current system where actual writers write comics. Besides, saying a writer sold x amount of books before as a qualification makes absolutely no sense since new guys like Snyder, Spencer, Ewing, Cates and even Hickman (who all wrote comics) were able to turn around and boost sales of the books they are writing. There are exceptions like Coates and Eve Ewing but these guys are established writers already. Why should Marvel pick some "johnny come lately" over an established writer? That doesn't make any sense.
    Here's the thing about this particular argument... I could give a whole list of names of people who are actual super hero comic book novice link their sales to them and you would just come up with another left field reason. I have already provided some "evidence" at your request and the article flat out told you what is going on, only for you to create post with nothing to back up what you are saying.

    Even without that based on the rules here it seems like people like you and the others who is all "Comicsgate this" and "Comicsgate that" turned this place in a den that avoids the truth to either protect bad creators or push some weird political stance. (I'm not sure) Both of which are bad for comics mind you. So even if I listed the creators sure enough without me knowing, some of them will fit into the Non-ComicsGate or Comicsgate narrative (since the rules of if it seem to be ever changing) and the post would be taken down or I get banned or something dumb.The tata duende that is comicsgate, that protects those that should not be protected and that is probably killing the industry.

    However, it is interesting that most the writers you choose to list are the one's who actually had experience in the industry before they got started though. Most of which too who started in the industry when they were still selling at good numbers or those who actually do produce sales. But completely ignored those who continue to get work but also under perform.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 05-23-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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  7. #157
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    Here's the thing about this particular argument... I could give a whole list of names of people who are actual super hero comic book novice link their sales to them and you would just come up with another left field reason. I have already provided some "evidence" at your request and the article flat out told you what is going on, only for you to create post with nothing to back up what you are saying.
    Naming real life writers and creators and their experience isn't a left of field reason. It's the straight up fact. Again, this discussion needs to be fact based for it to make any sense and in a discussion both parties state their claims and accept or refute each other posts, that's the way it works. You stating that "writers are not qualified to write comics" doesn't mean anything when the writers are in fact very qualified. Also Marvel have been very public about hiring writers with only published works (with the exception of guest creators). This isn't some recent information, it's been around for a while.

    Even without that based on the rules here it seems like people like you and the others who is all "Comicsgate this" and "Comicsgate that" turned this place in a den that avoids the truth to either protect bad creators or push some weird political stance. (I'm not sure) Both of which are bad for comics mind you. So even if I listed the creators sure enough without me knowing, some of them will fit into the Non-ComicsGate or Comicsgate narrative (since the rules of if it seem to be ever changing) and the post would be taken down or I get banned or something dumb.The tata duende that is comicsgate, that protects those that should not be protected and that is probably killing the industry.
    If you're getting banned, then you might want to examine what you're posting and how you're posting. Everyone has been discussing politely (even Kintor has been very polite) but if you can't do the same, then you might want to engage other posters via DMs or via another communication channel.
    I really don't have the time for the comicsgaters because its comprised of a group of people that clearly don't read the comics, know nothing about how they're made, know nothing about the creators but are simply another sign of the senseless, reactionary nonsense that has dominated social media in recent years with an added tinge of bigotry. They're far more whiny and fragile than the "SJWs" they keep crying everywhere about.

    However, it is interesting that most the writers you choose to list are the one's who actually had experience in the industry before they got started though. Most of which too who started in the industry when they were still selling at good numbers or those who actually do produce sales. But completely ignored those who continue to get work but also under perform.
    You made a broader point that comics should be written by people that have written comics before and can sell books. My response to that (again) is that the publishers standard for recruiting writers now is higher than its ever been and there are writers that have no experience selling books that have done so in recent times solely on the strength of their work.

    Even the guys writing low selling books like Ewing and Zdarksy (outside of Spider-man) have published works and have won a number of awards.

    But like I said, we aren't getting anywhere because you seem to have difficulty with people challenging your assertions.

    Since we aren't going to agree, i'll bow out of the discussion now. No point in going round in circles because as I've said before its now a circular discussion which really is in the violation of the boards.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 05-23-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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  8. #158
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Naming real life writers and creators and their experience isn't a left of field reason. It's the straight up fact. Again, this discussion needs to be fact based for it to make any sense and in a discussion both parties state their claims and accept or refute each other posts, that's the way it works. You stating that "writers are not qualified to write comics" doesn't mean anything when the writers are in fact very qualified. Also Marvel have been very public about hiring writers with only published works (with the exception of guest creators). This isn't some recent information, it's been around for a while.
    If your "published work" consist of a blog on the internet or some low selling indie novel on amazon...then no you don't have experience in the industry. Also, when you are present with facts you ignore them and circle back to the same talking points you presented in the post being refuted.
    If you're getting banned, then you might want to examine what you're posting and how you're posting. Everyone has been discussing politely (even Kintor has been very polite) but if you can't do the same, then you might want to engage other posters via DMs or via another communication channel.
    I really don't have the time for the comicsgaters because its comprised of a group of people that clearly don't read the comics, know nothing about how they're made, know nothing about the creators but are simply another sign of the senseless, reactionary nonsense that has dominated social media in recent years with an added tinge of bigotry. They're far more whiny and fragile than the "SJWs" they keep crying everywhere about.
    I'm not getting banned by some frivolous clause is the whole point. The first point I made about this topic you started off talking about how Comicsgate was "banned" from this forum. Which led to more then 3 pages of distracting conversation trying to prove I was something Im not that had NOTHING to do with Marvel's sales. Just reading about them off hand again in this thread it seems to be more of scapegoat for under performing titles or creators. Because without addressing ANY title in particular I was accused of something I am not.

    ERGO, listing creators names who I don't know race, religion, or who they will or will not sleep with and so on will start that strawman again. Which judging by this thread is just another way to remove posters they don't agree with. So again I will pass with that clear ill placed bait.

    You made a broader point that comics should be written by people that have written comics before and can sell books. My response to that (again) is that the publishers standard for recruiting writers now is higher than its ever been and there are writers that have no experience selling books that have done so in recent times solely on the strength of their work.

    Even the guys writing low selling books like Ewing and Zdarksy (outside of Spider-man) have published works and have won a number of awards.

    But like I said, we aren't getting anywhere because you seem to have difficulty with people challenging your assertions.

    Since we aren't going to agree, i'll bow out of the discussion now. No point in going round in circles because as I've said before its now a circular discussion which really is in the violation of the boards.
    You would note I never said all the creators were bad. I did however said there are several who are getting work and are still working with Marvel who should not be there based off of their SALES, PERFORMANCE, and THEIR ATTITUDES. That's it and it hasn't changed you naming a few good ones does not magically absolve the rest. It doesn't magically change the sales numbers. And it shouldn't magically protect them from removal or criticism.

    If you would like to leave the discussion that is fine. Not trying to make you feel trapped in any way. But at the same time remember I brought evidence and your overall stance "Well there are other factors" did you bring any evidence of that ? No. Did you bring anything at all that proved you opinion. No? So what we are left with is a sales chart on the front page showing the low numbers. A creator who has been in the industry for over 20 something years who had his own comic company saying the industry is being held up on a gimmick. And an article where one of the biggest retailers, who has been in the industry for 30 something years saying that the large companies are destroying their business.

    To some that would be enough evidence. But whatever. My goal here is mostly to show people what is going on and encourage them to do more. Many are behaving as if that is some crime. However, when the day comes that Marvel is licensed out to some low rent publisher or shut down altogether those same people will also probably be the first to complain about it.

    To everyone else if you want better books say so. And say so loudly. We have all entertained this wave of rubbish for a very long time. Now it is time to use the access we have to start ACTUAL conversations with these creators online to either give respectful criticisms or show the lack of care or value some creators or bringing to the table to your friends and family. Sometimes when something needs to change for the better it takes people on the outside who care to get it done.
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 05-23-2019 at 02:41 PM.
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  9. #159
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    I don't know what's so difficult to understand that comics are selling more in other channels than the DM. The info posted by JK was from Comichron
    I think this whole conversation is doing everything but debating sales of floppies in the DM, so let me just make one thing clear: the category of 'comics' that is being reported on in the book stores is Dog Man, a couple other young adult or junior graphic novels, and My Hero Academia. While I speak for myself, I feel very confident in saying this, commentary on the outlook of Marvel comics, or the 'comics industry' as a whole, only cares about monthly comics through the DM, and mostly superhero books at that. All the money that Mr Pilkey is raking in each month means absolutely nothing to this topic.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I think this whole conversation is doing everything but debating sales of floppies in the DM, so let me just make one thing clear: the category of 'comics' that is being reported on in the book stores is Dog Man, a couple other young adult or junior graphic novels, and My Hero Academia. While I speak for myself, I feel very confident in saying this, commentary on the outlook of Marvel comics, or the 'comics industry' as a whole, only cares about monthly comics through the DM, and mostly superhero books at that. All the money that Mr Pilkey is raking in each month means absolutely nothing to this topic.
    I don't deny this, we have gone off the OPs post.

    I have no issue with discussing direct monthly sales. The issue I have is certain assertions that go completely out of the realm of what we see in the monthly sales estimates and veer into unverifiable theories.

    No one here is denying that sales could be better for Marvel or anyone else. I'm not even going to defend Marvel's rubbish business practices because while I don't agree with them, i feel that they're as a result of the nature of the DM. All this being said, there's a large gap between sales being better and actually losing money on sales.

    The ancillary means of selling comics has crept into the conversation because there are titles that are now surviving totaling outside the DM and Marvel we have one example- Moon Girl. Moon Girl has gone on for years now solely because of the ancillary sales channels (Scholastic which according to the comichron link is rising in importance). We don't have any sales estimates outside of the DM but since they're now being included in annual sales analysis we can't exclude from the conversation when we're speculating about the actual health of the publishers. Doubly so when in 2018 DM sales have declined compared to the other sales channels.
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  11. #161
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I think this whole conversation is doing everything but debating sales of floppies in the DM, so let me just make one thing clear: the category of 'comics' that is being reported on in the book stores is Dog Man, a couple other young adult or junior graphic novels, and My Hero Academia. While I speak for myself, I feel very confident in saying this, commentary on the outlook of Marvel comics, or the 'comics industry' as a whole, only cares about monthly comics through the DM, and mostly superhero books at that. All the money that Mr Pilkey is raking in each month means absolutely nothing to this topic.
    This is 100% on the money. SUPERHERO comics are down by a large degree.
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  12. #162
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    The ancillary means of selling comics has crept into the conversation because there are titles that are now surviving totaling outside the DM and Marvel we have one example- Moon Girl. Moon Girl has gone on for years now solely because of the ancillary sales channels (Scholastic which according to the comichron link is rising in importance). We don't have any sales estimates outside of the DM but since they're now being included in annual sales analysis we can't exclude from the conversation when we're speculating about the actual health of the publishers. Doubly so when in 2018 DM sales have declined compared to the other sales channels.
    I think the other channels are very important when looking at how to grow the floppy market, as feeder systems. Obviously floppies are not going back to corner stores. The trick is to convince someone to switch from buying a 200+ page book for $12 and start buying 20 page periodicals for $4. The growth in the other channels are a good sign.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    This is 100% on the money. SUPERHERO comics are down by a large degree.
    While I have been critical of comic sales on here for nearly a decade now, this is not so much about how much comic sales are down, but seeing how big they could be. Even if comic sales were on par with whatever measuring stick you are using, I would still believe that they could be so much bigger. I think worrying about the arbitrary metrics (i.e., Diamond numbers and market share) is what is keeping the DM held back. Even Image worries too much on that 10% threshold.

    We fixate too much on how much money publishers can squeeze out of retailers who then worry about how they can recoup their losses, without ever having a real good idea of reader reactions. The Diamond numbers are the closest thing we have to watching the trends. Which books are picking up, losing readers, or staying level. The problem isn't that Marvel can't find a way to convince retailers (and readers) to give them a lot of money up front for some hyped item, the problem is no one can put out more than a couple titles that bring in a respectable number of customers month after month.

  13. #163
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post

    We fixate too much on how much money publishers can squeeze out of retailers who then worry about how they can recoup their losses, without ever having a real good idea of reader reactions. The Diamond numbers are the closest thing we have to watching the trends. Which books are picking up, losing readers, or staying level. The problem isn't that Marvel can't find a way to convince retailers (and readers) to give them a lot of money up front for some hyped item, the problem is no one can put out more than a couple titles that bring in a respectable number of customers month after month.
    I agree with a lot of what you are saying. The differences we have lay mostly in perspectives or better or best, which I'm fine with.

    The only thing I disagree with is the bold. Marvel and DC highest selling titles use to sell on a consistent bases of 200-500k in units. With their lowest title selling in the 20k margin and if it continued to sell that way it was cancelled. There is no reason that should not be still going on. Marvel and DC properties are at the point of recognition of Santa Clause, Mickey Mouse, and so on now. But their most recognizable characters can't break 2000 units ordered? Nah, I'm sorry no other industry anywhere would buy or put up with that. The notion of it is purely bad business.

    There may be some room for disagreement if we weren't in a place were indie publishers and other comics in the same genre weren't hitting the Big Two's old milestones today without the brand recognition. Retailers lack faith in the content, the quality, and due to how they are being treated. If Marvel changed how they treated the retailers showed them they respect and want their business things would change for the better. Same story goes for the fans as well.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-23-2019 at 08:16 AM.
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  14. #164
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Yeah....Marvel Doesn't have a quality issue at all!*Roll Eyes*




    Stuff like this, on the level that Marvel is on, SHOULD NOT BE HAPPENING.

    It shows a lack of concern, a lack of professionalism ,and a lack of quality. This thing not only was created by a artist hands but it also had to touch an editors. If the artist made a misstep in his quest of creating the ultimate photo shot for Marvel's false 1000 issue, it was up to an editor to go over it like a hawk to find any errors or details that would/could come off as inappropriate or unnecessary for the 1000 issue. Did it happen? By all appearances no. Will there be consequences for something like this? Probably not.

    And that is the issue. Who ever edited this needs blow back from Marvel and whoever created needs to be sit down and instructed on why details are important at this level and in this business. If this cover made it to print Marvel could have had a Copyright lawsuit from their biggest competitor on it's hands.

    But hey low sales and cruddy work isn't an issue at Marvel. lol

    https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/...dc-comics-art/
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  15. #165
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