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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Who's the amateur talent at Marvel? Please name them.

    Because right now, they're chock full of great writers and artists.
    Indeed the kind of critique we are seeing her in this thread is not fan based it is critical to the core. If anyone genuinely thinks Marvel are a bunch of amateurs who can't write superhero comics then I am certainly not going to agree with their opinions about how to put things right, because I am happy with the books I am reading.

  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    The endless, 'comics are dying', 'they need to change', 'in my day...', 'why can't they just go back to...', rhetoric is boring.

    Comics are not dying, they are in a constant state of change, backwards looking directions are for a limited market.

    Don't like the books? Just stop reading them. The main thing Marvel are interested in is sales. A genuine drop in sales will send the message. We are not seeing that. Instead we are seeing a genuine spread of sales over a wider number of books. The message Marvel are hearing loud and clear is continue to diversify the range and that new books or characters can have a place in the market. They will continue to do this while break-out successes occur. We don't even have the means to measure that success so it is pointless arguing over the things we can see through the tiny window that is Diamond reporting.

    We keep hearing the 'throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks' analogy as a criticism. There is nothing wrong with that as a business model as long as you hire talented people to create the stuff you are throwing. If they have the money to do it then what is the problem?

    We keep hearing that Marvel are 'cornering the market'. For starters they are not, because to do that they would need to produce a lot more books than they do, but even if they were that is a viable business plan.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Uh alright.. I'll rephrase my statement.. Fans trying to "save" comics in the past has led to delusional, negative, and downright dumb groups like ComicsGate.
    Yeah your probably right that is so much lamer than "We can't do anything lets just watch something that has been apart of peoples lives for over 70 years die", I mean that is real winners attitude if I have ever seen one.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    But the company can see that for themselves and interpret it with much more knowledge and expertise than a fan could.
    By the way they are running their business and behaving all signs point to incompetence, apathy, and to large extent arrogance. All of which is stopping them from succeeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    That's completely subjective and not evident of most Marvel comics? I for one would love to actually read a filler story where characters just interact and talk. Look there's dozens of reasons comics aren't selling as well.. and I'm pretty sure the answer can't be fixed by "just write good superhero stories."
    The data doesn't lie. If you want sit around making excuses more power too you. But a large chunk of the market is going other places to get their fix and the common denominator match up to how Marvel was behaving, marketing, and producing as to why they are seeing success. You know while the Mainstream comic book industry is featured literally everywhere and they still have books selling 500 copies a month.



    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Honestly, I'm really skeptical this would amount to anything and if it would amount to anything good. My biggest problem with this is that I've been hearing mostly good things about Marvel lately so..

    If you really wanna change comics, I'd suggest getting into the business.

    But hey, maybe you're right, comics are dying. Nothing lasts forever after all. Maybe we should just be reading and supporting comics we enjoy instead of complaining about bad ones?
    How about coming up with alternative ideas then just shooting them down? How about not just accepting the death of something that doesn't need to die?

    Marvel is currently riding their horse with binders, we as fans need to start nudging them back on track. These sales are nothing short of sad and embarrassing. Not only that they are a clear indicator of an eventual shut down. And that shut down, by the numbers, is a lot closer than people realize or want to admit.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-21-2019 at 05:07 AM.
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  4. #124
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Comics and graphic novel sales hit new high in 2018

    We finally have the 2018 industry report.
    https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomi...ustrywide.html

    “A historic shift is playing out as the market grew, primarily in the book channel, in 2018,” Griepp said. “While comics stores are still the largest channel, they represented less than half the market for comics and graphic novels in 2018 for the first time in at least three decades.”

  5. #125
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    We actually discussed that in another thread. SUPERHERO mainstream comic books are at a record low. While Manga and crowd funded books are influence the industry positively.

    Exact insert from the other thread we had this conversation.

    *Face Palm*

    " You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

    FYI pulling a chart talking about the industry as a whole does absolve Marvel as an individual company. But even if you ignore that you have to understand or the very least seek to understand what you are reading.


    These are direct quotes from the Comichron article that was posted as a supposed "Clap Back"

    “While comics stores are still the largest channel, they represented less than half the market for comics and graphic novels in 2018 for the first time in at least three decades.”

    Digital sales were also up for the first time in several years, with increased title counts across multiple platforms a factor
    So all of last year and the year before when people where talking about Digital sales were still wrong and they still aren't as high as the direct markets. Which I have been saying in this thread.

    Now this is the BIG factor that has cause the turn around of the industry as a whole
    A new category, “Other,” has been added to the channel breakdown. “Other” includes the Newsstand (periodical sales through specialty retail and mass merchant chains) and Crowdfunding (Kickstarter, etc.) channels. This year, those two channels each accounted for roughly half of the “Other” category.
    This basically means independent creators who broke out on their own had a large helping hand in uplifting the market. Not only that but those independent creators didn't/couldn't rely on inflated prices with less actual sale numbers per unit. LOL For all the crap some the crowdfunding sector of the industry got, for whatever reason, they played a significant role in turn around.

    The other thing people here are not getting, acknowledging, or ignoring is that the largest seller in the comic industry isn't even Superhero comics right now. Its MANGA. So again using a graph to represent whats going on with MARVEL with the whole Comic Industry isn't by any means an accurate measurement of what is going on with it as a company.
    https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomi...ustrywide.html
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-21-2019 at 05:42 AM.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintor View Post
    Speaking in strictly general terms the reputation of Marvel at the moment is that they seem to be hiring directly from Tumblr. Getting a job a Marvel used to be something writers and artists had to earn, after years in the industry with a proven track record (read: profitable books) at other comic publishers. Now all you need to get into Marvel is to show the right politics and have a willingness to work for below minimum wage.
    I'm not even sure why you are saying the bolded because it's completely untrue and it's something that Gaiman politely explained to the comicsgaters on twitter. In the past, a lot of writers that entered the medium weren't even writing at all before they entered comics. This is pretty common knowledge.

    In the past guys like Stern, Gaiman and even Layton started off in other mediums before actively writing comics. Claremont and Lobdell weren't even hired as writers before they pivoted into writing comics and yet they wrote some of the highest selling comics of all time.

    Marvel have publicly stated they generally go for people that have published work and that's largely been the case.

    In recent years, guys like Cates, Spencer, Rosenberg, Hickman, Aaron and Waid have extensive work in comics (which I'm pretty sure you already know), so again, I don't know why you're saying that Marvel's creators don't have experience in comics (unless you're saying that Waid and Aaron have never written top selling titles).

    And you're regurgitating dead and false "comicsgate" arguments especially with the politics talk.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-21-2019 at 06:04 AM.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    We actually discussed that in another thread. SUPERHERO mainstream comic books are at a record low. While Manga and crowd funded books are influence the industry positively.

    Exact insert from the other thread we had this conversation.



    https://www.comichron.com/yearlycomi...ustrywide.html
    This proves what JK has been saying all along that comic sales are shifting from the direct market to other mediums.

    And it's something I've hammered for a long time, the direct market is declining in importance(as it now represents less than half of total graphic novel and comic sales) and other avenues of distribution are growing. Although, overall sales there have increased in 2018.

    While we don't have the numbers for the other mediums, for me, this can be viewed as a good thing because the DM has simply been too restrictive for too long. I didn't even start going to comic shops until I was a teenager in the 90s.

    I've long stopped buying physical comics and gone all digital simply because there are no comic stores near me and I suspect that's the case for many people.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-21-2019 at 06:45 AM.
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  8. #128
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    This proves what JK has been saying all along that comic sales are shifting from the direct market to other mediums.

    And it's something I've hammered for a long time, the direct market is declining in importance(as it now represents less than half of total graphic novel and comic sales) and other avenues of distribution are growing. Although, overall sales there have increased in 2018.

    While we don't have the numbers for the other mediums, for me, this can be viewed as a good thing because the DM has simply too restrictive for too long. I didn't even start going to comic shops until I was a teenager in the 90s.

    I've long stopped buying physical comics and gone all digital simply because there are no comic stores near me and I suspect that's the case for many people.
    No it proves that people are willing to make excuses and just believe whatever you are given.

    If you look at the digital sales model they are giving the Marvel books way on comixology month in and month out with their sales of 75% and 50%. The major source of digital comics is making close to nothing off their books and is thereby forced into Volume based sales model. Ergo everything else they are selling on that platform is carrying it. Not only that this is the FIRST YEAR that sales there have actually been what one would consider to be good. However, Marvel has been touting out "digital sales, digital sales" since 2010.

    The graphic novel "comic" market it prominently made of Manga books and books like Captain Underpants.

    SUPERHERO comics as industry is past under-performing to now loosing money on some of the books they are putting out. Ergo two feat in the grave as dirt continues to be piled on.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    No it proves that people are willing to make excuses and just believe whatever you are given.

    If you look at the digital sales model they are giving the Marvel books way on comixology month in and month out with their sales of 75% and 50%. The major source of digital comics is making close to nothing off their books and is thereby forced into Volume based sales model. Ergo everything else they are selling on that platform is carrying it. Not only that this is the FIRST YEAR that sales there have actually been what one would consider to be good. However, Marvel has been touting out "digital sales, digital sales" since 2010.

    The graphic novel "comic" market it prominently made of Manga books and books like Captain Underpants.

    SUPERHERO comics as industry is past under-performing to now loosing money on some of the books they are putting out. Ergo two feat in the grave as dirt continues to be piled on.
    Digital sales have never been as much as print sales and I don't believe anyone (Marvel guys included) have ever said they are. Digital has been touted as an ancillary channel and that's never stopped being the case.

    What I've read is that for some select titles, digital sales are higher (like Ms Marvel) in the past.

    I'm curious as to where people are getting information that comics are losing money. I would love to read the source of this because direct market stakeholders print to order, that's what the entire model is based upon so that the publisher and retailers don't end up losing money on titles that don't sell (that's why overships are a headache to retailers and why variants will always continue to drive sales in the DM).

    I'm.not saying it's impossible, I'm just curious how it could happen on any reasonable scale given the nature of the market.
    Last edited by Username taken; 05-21-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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  10. #130
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    I wonder if anyone complaining about Marvel and it's policies have actually tried to approach them or initiated a dialog with them or they just like to vent their feelings over such forums and having vented enough about it they start feeling better and forget all about actually doing something concrete about it until the next time they feel the need to vent about the issue again.

  11. #131
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Digital sales have never been as much as print sales and I don't believe anyone (Marvel guys included) have ever said they are. Digital has been touted as an ancillary channel and that's never stopped being the case.

    What I've read is that for some select titles, digital sales are higher (like Ms Marvel) in the past.

    I'm curious as to where people are getting information that comics are losing money. I would love to read the source of this because direct market stakeholders print to order, that's what the entire model is based upon so that the publisher and retailers don't end up losing money on titles that don't sell (that's why overships are a headache to retailers and why variants will always continue to drive sales in the DM).

    I'm.not saying it's impossible, I'm just curious how it could happen on any reasonable scale given the nature of the market.
    They have mention on more then one occasion that digital and graphic sales are responsible for some of their practices as well as claiming/giving the impression that they were good.

    Look at the sales chart. That and anyone paying attention to the sales tactics in other markets they are in, can gather on average how much they most likely gain from sales. If a person has any education at all in the subject matter ,or just good ole fashion experience, it would take them moments to break down an average amount compared to that of others in the same field. So if you are asking me, personally, how I know. Well this is were I fall.

    But even if you didn't have any of that all it would take is a calculator to figure out that 75% taken from $8-20 books, with knowledge that even after that dollars have to be handed out to other people, isn't gangbusters money. The fact that sales like those run multiple months on in, anyone who doesn't live in a cave somewhere, would realize that Marvel Digital is the equivalent of a lower grade Payless shoes. Not to slight Payless but to be given the false impression that they are making the money of A Diciannoveventitre is not only sickening but shameful.

    You are also out of date on by large margin on your information about retailers. There have been numerous articles about stores closing and retailers being upset. The most notable I have read as of today is this one:

    https://******************.com/2019/...book-industry/

    Please check it out. You don't have to agree with the "Plan" but you must acknowledge what he is saying about the comic book industry.

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    I wonder if anyone complaining about Marvel and it's policies have actually tried to approach them or initiated a dialog with them or they just like to vent their feelings over such forums and having vented enough about it they start feeling better and forget all about actually doing something concrete about it until the next time they feel the need to vent about the issue again.
    I actually have. I practice what I preach.

    I have spoken to people who act like children when approached to creators who have agreed with me but were not in a position where they can do much. People who fear for their lively hood because the bad actors are running the hen house. I have even spoken with one creator who may actually be able to get our voice out there. If nothing else.

    What have you done lately?
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-21-2019 at 08:29 AM.
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  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    They have mention on more then one occasion that digital and graphic sales are responsible for some of their practices as well as claiming/giving the impression that they were good.

    Look at the sales chart. That and anyone paying attention to the sales tactics in other markets they are in, can gather on average how much they most likely gain from sales. If a person has any education at all in the subject matter ,or just good ole fashion experience, it would take them moments to break down an average amount compared to that of others in the same field. So if you are asking me, personally, how I know. Well this is were I fall.

    But even if you didn't have any of that all it would take is a calculator to figure out that 75% taken from $8-20 books, with knowledge that even after that dollars have to be handed out to other people, isn't gangbusters money. The fact that sales like those run multiple months on in, anyone who doesn't live in a cave somewhere, would realize that Marvel Digital is the equivalent of a lower grade Payless shoes. Not to slight Payless but to be given the false impression that they are making the money of A Diciannoveventitre is not only sickening but shameful.

    You are also out of date on by large margin on your information about retailers. There have been numerous articles about stores closing and retailers being upset. The most notable I have read as of today is this one:

    https://******************.com/2019/...book-industry/

    Please check it out. You don't have to agree with the "Plan" but you must acknowledge what he is saying about the comic book industry.



    I actually have. I practice what I preach.

    I have spoken to people who act like children when approached to creators who have agreed with me but were not in a position where they can do much. People who fear for their lively hood because the bad actors are running the hen house. I have even spoken with one creator who may actually be able to get our voice out there. If nothing else.

    What have you done lately?
    I know about comic stores are closing down but that doesn't directly relate to the superhero comics losing money for Marvel. Not to mention that comic sales are down across the board and frankly, some retailers simply don't fully understand the business they're engaged in (it's harsh but it's true) and it's something that Hibbs himself pointed to. If a retailer has previously sold 10 copes of Spider-man but continues to order the same copies when sales have declined, then that fellow has made a fatal business error.

    I'm not saying sales aren't down but they are down across the board (if other publishers sales were higher, they'd simply shift their orders to bring in more product from other competing publishers). They don't make their money solely from selling Marvel comics.

    From the article you quoted:

    Honestly, publishers and creators will only do what they think they can get away with. I’m going to spend a bit talking about publisher behavior in a minute, but, to a person, we enabled those behaviors! THEY can’t and won’t publish material unless WE buy it! Every single order form we turn in is a vote for the future that we want, and a lot of us have been voting actively against our best interests for many years.

    I can’t especially blame the publishers for trying to meet our “demand”: if you could get an extra 20% in sales by paying $500 to an artist, and doing a plate change at the printer, why wouldn’t you? But, as with absolutely everything in the post-Heroes World Direct Market, we lack absolutely anyone willing to stand up and say “No, that’s a little too far”; to protect us against our own worst impulses. All Markets need brakes and guardrails.


    The bolded part is what i referring to earlier about printing to order. If orders are too ridiculously low for a book, Marvel will simply cancel and not even release it because they'll only lose money on it.

    Also according to Brian Hibbs:

    We have, as I see it, two major problems at the publisher level: one of content, and one of the amount of product. In terms of content, while I think that we’re at a golden age of comics right now, with more amazing material being published than ever before, the base level of quality of our core periodical product in the direct market – the driver of sales and success in our market, both in the superhero universe material as well as most licensed and creator-owned titles – is at a near-historical nadir.

    I am not at all convinced that over the last two decades or so that even the minimum amount of effort has been put into developing editorial staff and support at the largest publishers. Most Editors are desultory at best at that skill set: instead publishers have been emphasizing traffic management and corporate synergy as the most important skills to develop. Comics are written to fill arbitrary holes in production schedules, rather than to be the best stories they can be. Creators are encouraged to write for page counts of pre-scheduled collections, rather than crafting each individual periodical release to be satisfying in and of itself, and only allowing the best of that material to go on to permanent book format collection.
    Digital is ancillary, so I expect sales targets to be far less than print (not to mention there aren't any print costs for them).


    Hibbs makes some interesting points but what stands out to me from his statement is that 1) the quality of comics are pretty high right now (a view that i second) 2) the business back end of the business needs work at the major publishers (i also agree with this).
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    They have mention on more then one occasion that digital and graphic sales are responsible for some of their practices as well as claiming/giving the impression that they were good.

    Look at the sales chart. That and anyone paying attention to the sales tactics in other markets they are in, can gather on average how much they most likely gain from sales. If a person has any education at all in the subject matter ,or just good ole fashion experience, it would take them moments to break down an average amount compared to that of others in the same field. So if you are asking me, personally, how I know. Well this is were I fall.

    But even if you didn't have any of that all it would take is a calculator to figure out that 75% taken from $8-20 books, with knowledge that even after that dollars have to be handed out to other people, isn't gangbusters money. The fact that sales like those run multiple months on in, anyone who doesn't live in a cave somewhere, would realize that Marvel Digital is the equivalent of a lower grade Payless shoes. Not to slight Payless but to be given the false impression that they are making the money of A Diciannoveventitre is not only sickening but shameful.

    You are also out of date on by large margin on your information about retailers. There have been numerous articles about stores closing and retailers being upset. The most notable I have read as of today is this one:

    https://******************.com/2019/...book-industry/

    Please check it out. You don't have to agree with the "Plan" but you must acknowledge what he is saying about the comic book industry.



    I actually have. I practice what I preach.

    I have spoken to people who act like children when approached to creators who have agreed with me but were not in a position where they can do much. People who fear for their lively hood because the bad actors are running the hen house. I have even spoken with one creator who may actually be able to get our voice out there. If nothing else.

    What have you done lately?
    well good for you if you are not just talking about changing the industry abstractly but actually actively trying to change the outlook of people. if you cite your efforts and names of creators who agree with your view then most people will take you seriously instead of dismissing your concerns. as for my doing anything about it I am not pretending to be the guardian or caretaker of the comic industry so I am pretty much indifferent to the issue. I will enjoy it so long as it's possible. if the comic industry folds up there are always other viable alternatives for entertainment.

  14. #134
    Extraordinary Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    We actually discussed that in another thread. SUPERHERO mainstream comic books are at a record low. While Manga and crowd funded books are influence the industry positively.
    That's a strange stat. Where do you get that information? Can you actually prove this or are you just guessing or minimising the direct market just because it suits your narrative?

    I am also contributing that to THIS thread for context, because some would suggest that comics are dying and that the direct market leader is somehow failing.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    https://******************.com/2019/...book-industry/

    Please check it out. You don't have to agree with the "Plan" but you must acknowledge what he is saying about the comic book industry.
    It's interesting that you claim to not know what ComicsGate is but use a source that wades knee deep in the filth.

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