Who's no longer villain material?

[Zero Hunter]

No? Are you referencing the Secret Empire tie-in or something else? Zemo had been chaotically neutral until that unexplained move to lead Hydra and restart the Masters of Evil. During Brubaker's cap run, he was mainly trolling Bucky. That was because he didn't consider him to be worthy of the shield.

Captain America 606-609. It basically hit the magic reset button and erased everything that had made Zemo cool so he could be a generic bad guy again.

[Michael Watkins]

Guess what I'm saying is that he wasn't a clear cut villain in those specific issues. He exposed Bucky's past as the Winter Soldier to world. And he tested Bucky's commitment to the Captain America identity. The public deserved to know what the Winter Soldier had done. And Bucky did need to be tested. Ultimately, it was proven that his heart wasn't in it. In that way, Zemo was protecting Cap's legacy. And he was re-disfigured saving Steve's life. If you count this as undoing his hero turn, what about Hawkeye: Blindshot? Was that villainy or him reuniting two brothers and testing Clint?

[Michael Watkins]

That pissed me off so much. They spent a decade turning Zemo into an awesome "grey" character in Thunderbolts only for Brubaker to undue it all in one very lame story. It was just so stupid and destroyed all the work the Thunderbolts writers did.

To me, he wasn't fully a villain until he killed Ian. That particular plot was a standard villain plot.

[Agent Z]

I see this comparison a lot. but, outside of Grant Morrison, have any writers actually gone to that well? if anything, he's a holocaust survivor acting like the Israeli Military. he started by hunting Nazis. then that branched out to any other threats to his people. he's never barcoded humans or put them in work camps. he uses violence to fight the violent. doesn't make him a good person. but calling him a Nazi is a bit much when the Marvel Universe still has actual living Nazis. it's perfectly ok to compare him to other terrorists though. he is a terrorist.

He's enslaved people in the Savage Land, tried to hold the entire world hostage through force or threat of force and made repeated attempts at genocide. Hell, he's not above mistreating fellow mutants as seen with Toad and his own children.

[Decoy]

Juggernaut tends to vary depending on what book he’s in,,,,,on Thor they came to blows, and he was only stopped when Thor summoned countless Hammers.......in Uncanny Cain suddenly cares about Mutants Plight and was willing to rejoin the team for the time being......

[Snoop Dogg]

you can look at no escape as not totally reversing the anti-hero stuff but then brubaker used him again as an actual cartoon villain in his dumb post-bucky cap book that was some buffoonery that ended with with jetpacks and space

spencer fixed zemo by having him believe in the greater good of hydra order so he can still be a villain but with some more of that self-righteous grayness

so of course rosenberg pushes him back towards the post-brubaker moustache twirling again

he was great when dennis hopeless wrote him, though
remender was solid, too

[Decoy]

I think Osborn is still evil......just nuttier than ever.....

[Michael Watkins]

He's enslaved people in the Savage Land, tried to hold the entire world hostage through force or threat of force and made repeated attempts at genocide. Hell, he's not above mistreating fellow mutants as seen with Toad and his own children.

we're talking about 2 separate individuals. it's like comparing a looney toons character of today to one from the black and white era. they evolved over time. in Magneto's case, a personality was given to a wild eyed 1-dimensional mad man. and i'm not sure that hewas even considered to be Jewish when he "enslaved" people in the Savageland or beat up the Toad.

[Chris0013]

He's enslaved people in the Savage Land, tried to hold the entire world hostage through force or threat of force and made repeated attempts at genocide. Hell, he's not above mistreating fellow mutants as seen with Toad and his own children.

we're talking about 2 separate individuals. it's like comparing a looney toons character of today to one from the black and white era. they evolved over time. in Magneto's case, a personality was given to a wild eyed 1-dimensional mad man. and i'm not sure that hewas even considered to be Jewish when he "enslaved" people in the Savageland or beat up the Toad.

For a guy who hates Nazis with a passion...he sure seems to have taken quite a bit out of their playbook.

[Michael Watkins]

For a guy who hates Nazis with a passion...he sure seems to have taken quite a bit out of their playbook.

there's actually nothing unusual about that. he experienced those tactics first hand. that would constitute his schooling. and there really are not that many playbooks. warfare and terrorism isn't exclusive to the nazi party. the United States has detention camps. we utilize propaganda. we also have the implied threat of nuclear warfare working for us.

[Agent Z]

For me

Prowler

Puma

Songbird

we're talking about 2 separate individuals. it's like comparing a looney toons character of today to one from the black and white era. they evolved over time. in Magneto's case, a personality was given to a wild eyed 1-dimensional mad man. and i'm not sure that hewas even considered to be Jewish when he "enslaved" people in the Savageland or beat up the Toad.

That's just it. He didn't evolve. He just got a Freudian excuse that made less and less sense over time and frankly comes across as pretty offensive when you examine it. He's still the same genocidal, murderous, supremacist ******* from the Silver Age.

[Agent Z]

there's actually nothing unusual about that. he experienced those tactics first hand. that would constitute his schooling. and there really are not that many playbooks. warfare and terrorism isn't exclusive to the nazi party. the United States has detention camps. we utilize propaganda. we also have the implied threat of nuclear warfare working for us.

And the US has frequently been criticised for such tactics. I don't see why Magneto gets a pass.

[Sutekh]

to play devil's advocate... Magneto is not a flip flopper. he has mood swings (a nod to him manipulating the poles).

Mags is as bipolar as his daughter Lorna, it's just not as talked about with his generation.

Sandman had a natural and organic change of heart that started with a friendship with Ben Grimm post-merger with Hydro-Man and grew until he was a reserve Avenger. Then somebody (maybe Byrne in his terrible Spider-Man book) did a lot of heavy lifting to artificially undo all the natural character growth that had been done.

Yeah, Sandman as a would-be Avenger was intriguing, and then, bam, I see him back on the Sinister Six with Doc Ock and the Vulture or whoever, and I'm like, 'whaaat?'

It amuses me that the Avengers can field entire lineups of ex-crooks and villains, starting with Wanda, Pietro and Clint, and including regular Avengers like Natasha, Vision, Simon, etc.

[Sectal]

One of the best redemption stories I’ve read involved scarlet spider Kaine. I love it when a character owns up to what they did instead of making excuses. In think a new generation of villains are needed in today’s age.

[Michael Watkins]

And the US has frequently been criticised for such tactics. I don't see why Magneto gets a pass.

he doesn't. I just took issue with the Nazi comparison. read my other post. I made sure to end it by calling him a terrorist.

That's just it. He didn't evolve. He just got a Freudian excuse that made less and less sense over time and frankly comes across as pretty offensive when you examine it. He's still the same genocidal, murderous, supremacist ******* from the Silver Age.

no idea what you're talking about. maybe you'll more clearly explain it. I see nothing offensive about his current portrayal. he's definitely murderous. from some angles, he's definitely an *******. anti-mutant bigots aren't their own race. so you can't really genocide them. "supremacist" is a real loaded term. and I think that he's quite a bit past that way of thinking. he's had his own mutancy taken away, for starters. but he's also regularly sleeping with Briar. I think you're stuck on your original impression of him. for contrast, look at Joseph or Grant Morrison's version of the character. those latter two lack nuance.