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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    While as I said above, I am cool with how it ended up, I think this is how Magneto's current characterization started out. It likely did start out as an honest attempt to redeem him, then someone else decided he needed his villain cred back, then the next person was like no, i want the face turn to stick. repeat. And eventually it just ended up with his borderline status where he can kinda go either way depending on the circumstances. So that technically that can work out, sort of, I think it does work for Magneto. Also, sometimes the whole point is the trying and eventual failing, so if that is the story, and it was planned that way from the start, ok.

    But in general I agree with you, there needs to be some consistency, and the editors should enforce a character's present status. They should consider carefully if they really want a character to switch sides, and not do it at all unless they are prepared to stick with it for a good long while. And if someone wants to flip them back, they better pitch a damn good story surrounding that.

    To the general discussion above, I've never liked the "yeah but they did ____ that one time" as reasoning that they can never be redeemed. I don't think we should allow a character's worst acts to forever define them, or redemption would never be possible for any character, and one fuckup for a hero would forever doom them to be considered a villain. The point of face turns is to show that a person can learn from their past and become better than what they were. Though I do think some characters would have a much harder time of it due to the sheer weight of their pasts. The worse their past the more they have to work for it, sure. But sometimes all it takes is a single epiphany to start them on the path, it's just that they'll have to do more to demonstrate to others that they've had a change of heart.
    Agree with all this. I think any villain can earn redemption. But it takes time to develop & writers need to keep up with them & stay consistent. Along with editorial.

    Again, with Creed, Bunn had a long story detailing his journey. Trying to atone for his horrible past and other writers adding to it by having him acknowledge that it would be hard because many would only see him as a monster. Then his fall back into villainy was gonna be a longer story as well, and Bunn mentioned it would serve as an Alzheimer's metaphor, and illness he lost his own father to.

    But Bunn lost the character. Pak got hold of him, and he was randomly antagonistic again, and served as the heel of the book for more than half of it and someone who Old Logan had to keep in line. Then the book ends with his villain flip being caused by Mentallo of all people, now he's evil again & going after the X-Men in WoR.

    Talk about wasted potential & opportunity. Especially with Bunn having him say he was gonna try to be something more than the monster & other than the inversion facade. But nope. Easier to have him as Wolverine's punching-bag. So that villain revert happened Asap. However, that's taking into account Pak's horrid writing where Creed didn't even seemed inverted half the time. He was supposed to be Angelus to Angel. But Pak went the Spike route where there's little difference between the good & evil version. And after lots of complaints, Pak started having the inversion announced when it was convenient while still having him doing suspect stuff that doesn't show much change. One issue he's rescuing baby tigers, the next he's wanting to smother someone with a pillow for annoying him.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 05-13-2019 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #62
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    He's still decent enough. The king of flip-flopping is still Daken. lol
    Well, there's definitely some nobility and honor to him but not enough that he isn't completely above killing innocents.

    I think Ian McKellan captured that pretty well.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post

    But Bunn lost the character. Pak got hold of him, and he was randomly antagonistic again, and served as the heel of the book for more than half of it and someone who Old Logan had to keep in line. Then the book ends with his villain flip being caused by Mentallo of all people, now he's evil again & going after the X-Men in WoR.

    Talk about wasted potential & opportunity. Especially with Bunn having him say he was gonna try to be something more than the monster & other than the inversion facade. But nope. Easier to have him as Wolverine's punching-bag. So that villain revert happened Asap. However, that's taking into account Pak's horrid writing where Creed didn't even seemed inverted half the time. He was supposed to be Angelus to Angel. But Pak went the Spike route where there's little difference between the good & evil version. And after lots of complaints, Pak started having the inversion announced when it was convenient while still having him doing suspect stuff that doesn't show much change. One issue he's rescuing baby tigers, the next he's wanting to smother someone with a pillow for annoying him.
    Over in the Loki thread, every time a new writer gets ahold of him, we have a mild panic attack, for this very reason. Especially lately, as face turns have been undone left and right in other books. (and as a fan of face turns in general, this makes me sad. I love face turn stories in lots of different things.) So far, Loki's been pretty lucky, nearly every writer that's gotten ahold of him has gone along with the changes (even if Aaron played with it by having him pretend to go bad again for a while there, and kinda backslide a bit, but he corrected course in WotR #1). He's had a couple stories where it was clear the writer wanted him to be a bad guy, but they were minor appearances that didn't have an impact on his direction. Generally they've progressed it, so it's been this steady progression where he went from villain, to anti-villain, to anti-hero, and now it appears straight up hero (though i presume with a bit of an edge) after WotR, even though he's going on to the 5th or 6th writer that's controlling his story (and several others adding side stories that support it). It's like the ideal, i think the slower progression helped make it more believable, and I wish other characters could get that too. But telling a story over the course of 10 years and 5 different writers is very rare these days, and I suspect the Thor editorial should get a lot of credit here because of that. so something like what happened with Creed and the inversion to speed the process up some is going to happen a lot of the time, because that is one way that a writer can be more sure that they get tot tell the whole story. But as you said, that's not a guarantee. And a more sudden shift does make it harder for it to stick, I think. But you never know when a new writer will come along and just decide to undo it all with little more than a handwave. It happened to Sandman and Emma Frost, after they had their turns last a really long time, so...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    that might be what he told himself, early on. but he actively seeks out threats to re-emphasize his mission. he's likely still experiencing post traumatic stress disorder basically/can't get past what happened to him during his time at the camps. in that way, he and Frank are alike. they are driven by rage. that's why I emphasized Magneto's self-reflection. he knows when he has made a mistake/killed out of anger instead of a need for justice. he has also killed other somewhat innocent mutants because he felt that they were a threat to mutantkind. it's all there in that first issue of Bunn's Magneto run.

    This is merely an assumption..its never been proven. It was last referenced when Moira Mctaggart was alive and played her behavior modification scam on an infant...

    Magneto has been on the X Men's side most of the time since 2009. And even when he crosses the line, the intent was always just. It was never about him wiping everyone out or being on top post Claremont. Morrison tried that silly road but even he had to use the kick drug as an excuse for the odd behavior.

    Magneto is driven by rage? Not quite. He survived when his sister and parents were gunned down...they killed his daughter by not letting him save her...his wife turned on him for killing those who prevented him from being a hero to his daughter..Isabella was killed by the American CIA just because he went after Nazi war criminals ....its a long tragic tale but it's why he cant ever be Captain America, Spider Man, or Storm.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by MichelleDiMera View Post
    This is merely an assumption..its never been proven. It was last referenced when Moira Mctaggart was alive and played her behavior modification scam on an infant...

    Magneto has been on the X Men's side most of the time since 2009. And even when he crosses the line, the intent was always just. It was never about him wiping everyone out or being on top post Claremont. Morrison tried that silly road but even he had to use the kick drug as an excuse for the odd behavior.

    Magneto is driven by rage? Not quite. He survived when his sister and parents were gunned down...they killed his daughter by not letting him save her...his wife turned on him for killing those who prevented him from being a hero to his daughter..Isabella was killed by the American CIA just because he went after Nazi war criminals ....its a long tragic tale but it's why he cant ever be Captain America, Spider Man, or Storm.
    His wife fled after witnessing his rage. Isabelle was treating him for stress. Don't you remember him (incognito) having that talk with the construction worker? Remember what set him off? The mention of baby Hitler. He flew into a rage.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  6. #66
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    magneto feeds hungry people signposts, he's a hero
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  7. #67

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    Gotta get your iron
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

  8. #68
    mutant and proud ermac's Avatar
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    Galactus being the Lifebringer was an original, fresh and interesting take. Reverting him without exploring the potential of that status quo was lame af.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    Galactus being the Lifebringer was an original, fresh and interesting take. Reverting him without exploring the potential of that status quo was lame af.
    Agree....that should have been at least a decade long thing before some major event pushed him back over the edge. Maybe even see him revive a lot of plants during the the course.

  10. #70
    Son of Satan DevilBat66's Avatar
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    Does Marvel have any real villains anymore even.
    I mean besides most of their "heroes" that is?
    Batman - Detective Comics - Harley Quinn - Doomsday Clock - Batman Who Laughs - Batman: Damned - Batman: Last Knight On Earth - Silver Surfer: Black

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Lots. Mephisto, Red Skull (he seems to be coming back), Dormammu, Kingpin, Malekith is being a turbo villain right now, Carnage (with an entire event surrounding him starting pretty soon)... I mean, i could go on... most of these are in absolutely no danger of turning face, at least not any time soon, with literal Nazis and remorseless serial killers among the bunch. And a bunch of new ones have been introduced recently, too. Marvel is in no danger of running out of baddies.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Watkins View Post
    His wife fled after witnessing his rage. Isabelle was treating him for stress. Don't you remember him (incognito) having that talk with the construction worker? Remember what set him off? The mention of baby Hitler. He flew into a rage.
    Justifiable rage any man would do if they had the means...

    Yes..the conversation with Bill Jones just gave Magneto an excuse to stop his pretense and show that he was Magneto. He said he smother the baby Hitler without thinking twice to save 6 million lives.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ermac View Post
    Galactus being the Lifebringer was an original, fresh and interesting take. Reverting him without exploring the potential of that status quo was lame af.
    I guess my thing is that I just don't see Galactus as a true villain to begin with. So what Ewing did with him was fun and lasted months longer than I thought it would, but the reversal itself only got to me because Galactus chose to bring Norrin Radd down with him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Over in the Loki thread, every time a new writer gets ahold of him, we have a mild panic attack, for this very reason. Especially lately, as face turns have been undone left and right in other books. (and as a fan of face turns in general, this makes me sad. I love face turn stories in lots of different things.) So far, Loki's been pretty lucky, nearly every writer that's gotten ahold of him has gone along with the changes (even if Aaron played with it by having him pretend to go bad again for a while there, and kinda backslide a bit, but he corrected course in WotR #1). He's had a couple stories where it was clear the writer wanted him to be a bad guy, but they were minor appearances that didn't have an impact on his direction. Generally they've progressed it, so it's been this steady progression where he went from villain, to anti-villain, to anti-hero, and now it appears straight up hero (though i presume with a bit of an edge) after WotR, even though he's going on to the 5th or 6th writer that's controlling his story (and several others adding side stories that support it). It's like the ideal, i think the slower progression helped make it more believable, and I wish other characters could get that too. But telling a story over the course of 10 years and 5 different writers is very rare these days, and I suspect the Thor editorial should get a lot of credit here because of that. so something like what happened with Creed and the inversion to speed the process up some is going to happen a lot of the time, because that is one way that a writer can be more sure that they get tot tell the whole story. But as you said, that's not a guarantee. And a more sudden shift does make it harder for it to stick, I think. But you never know when a new writer will come along and just decide to undo it all with little more than a handwave. It happened to Sandman and Emma Frost, after they had their turns last a really long time, so...
    Yeah, we freak out whenever a new writer comes along lol

    I mean, I feel like we feel safer with Loki than we used to, but there's always that threat that he'll go bad. Of course, compared to other characters, you can legit have five different Lokis running around and it'll be fine and not completely confusing.

  14. #74
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    remember when brubaker nuked zemo's character development so he could tie bucky to a rocket and disappear
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  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    remember when brubaker nuked zemo's character development so he could tie bucky to a rocket and disappear
    No? Are you referencing the Secret Empire tie-in or something else? Zemo had been chaotically neutral until that unexplained move to lead Hydra and restart the Masters of Evil. During Brubaker's cap run, he was mainly trolling Bucky. That was because he didn't consider him to be worthy of the shield.
    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I thought I couldn't love Steve Rogers any more than I already do, but here he is, eating pizza with a fork, just like I do (the only correct way to eat pizza

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