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  1. #16
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    The problem with comparing the Rogues to another hero's villains is that the Rogues are so unique, especially with the way they're written these days. As a longtime Flash fan I enjoy the individual character's histories and personalities, but they act as a single unit and they don't (or aren't supposed to) kill, so they're operating on a different wavelength than, say, the Bat-villains. It almost seems weird to break them down as individual bad guys anymore. There's not Captain Cold AND Heatwave AND Mirror Master AND Trickster (and so forth), it's just... the Rogues. That seems to be DC's preferred method of packaging them, anyway.

  2. #17
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    The problem with comparing the Rogues to another hero's villains is that the Rogues are so unique, especially with the way they're written these days. As a longtime Flash fan I enjoy the individual character's histories and personalities, but they act as a single unit and they don't (or aren't supposed to) kill, so they're operating on a different wavelength than, say, the Bat-villains. It almost seems weird to break them down as individual bad guys anymore. There's not Captain Cold AND Heatwave AND Mirror Master AND Trickster (and so forth), it's just... the Rogues. That seems to be DC's preferred method of packaging them, anyway.
    Yeah, The Rogues are probably the most organized villain group in comics.

    At least they get along better then "Godwatch" or are more stable then the Legion of Doom.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Much like the Court of Owls. Or even Bane, in certain stories (he's manipulating all kinds of people right now, right?)
    The Court of Owls is only a recent addition (and is also a group, not one individual man) and Bane, while being brilliant, isn't the same archetype as Ra's since the latter has the entire League of Assassins under his command. Ra's is more like Lex Luthor than like Bane.

    So is Riddler, and probably several other foes I'm not thinking of.
    The Riddler is definitely not the same as the Joker. The Riddler is all about outsmarting Batman. Joker is all about being the chaos to Bruce's order.

    This is largely the same thing.
    The Man-Bat is not really a distinct personality the way that Harvey Dent's other half is.

    And Croc, KGBeast, Clayface, etc., are all also big bruisers who rely on size and raw strength.
    I'm talking more about how Bane not only is a big bruiser but how he burst onto the scene by dealing a major blow to Bruce. Its an archetype of villain that has popped up in some other heroes' rogues galleries. For Superman, it was Doomsday; for Spider-Man, it was Venom; etc.

    An eco-terrorist just like Ra's, and a femme fatale just like Selina and friggin Roxy Rocket
    Poison Ivy is more of a femme fatale than Selina, though, I'd say. She's more about controlling men and putting them under her spell. Selina is only really seen as a femme fatale because she tempts Bruce. And Ivy is more extricably linked to her love of nature than Ra's.

    Just like Black Mask.
    Not really. Black Mask may have the scarred face, but he's not a rotund little gremlin like Penguin. Penguin's unattractiveness has also factored into his characterization in some incarnations in a way it hasn't for Black Mask.

    This is very true. You're going to find a lot of overlap and repeated archetypes in any rogues gallery, because the archetypes that mix well get recycled for new villains. But I dont think there's any more diversity in Batman's villains than there are in Barry's. I think the Arkham crowd has had a little more effort put into exploring their various psychosis, but there's tons and tons of overlap wherever you look.

    I think Flash's rogues get a little undervalued, if anything.
    I'm just saying that, for a long time, its seemed that if writers wanted to make a new Flash villain, it was either "here's another speedster" or "here's another guy with a trick gun or boomerang." I'm not saying that Flash villains aren't interesting or compelling characters. A lot of them are. It would just be refreshing to see a prominent Flash villain aside from Grodd that isn't a speedster or a white man with some variation of a trick gun or gadget.

    I mean, can anyone even pick out a female villain in Flash's rogues that is as prominent as Catwoman or Poison Ivy or Harley Quinn or even Talia al Ghul? Golden Glider is mostly known as Captain Cold's little sister who tends to get fridged and, while Magenta was at least a valiant effort at a prominent female villain, she was Wally's villain, not Barry's.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 05-13-2019 at 01:35 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Except for their different powersets, motivations, personalities, and addictions.

    They're about as similar as Joker and Riddler; which is to say that aside from some very basic and general similarities they're actually quite different.
    Yeah, but we should also be thinking about how the general non-comic reading public sees things and the optics. Comics are just as much a visual medium as they are a written one, after all. I mean, the similarities of the Rogues works when you sell them as a team of villains as opposed to individual villains, which DC does do more often than not. So, in a Flash film, for example, you could do a film with the Rogues as the main villains, all of them operating as a team under Captain Cold. However, if you tried to do two Flash movies, one with Heatwave and then the next with Captain Cold or Mirror Master, I think most people would think "well didn't he just fight a guy with a fancy gun in the last movie?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    The problem with comparing the Rogues to another hero's villains is that the Rogues are so unique, especially with the way they're written these days. As a longtime Flash fan I enjoy the individual character's histories and personalities, but they act as a single unit and they don't (or aren't supposed to) kill, so they're operating on a different wavelength than, say, the Bat-villains. It almost seems weird to break them down as individual bad guys anymore. There's not Captain Cold AND Heatwave AND Mirror Master AND Trickster (and so forth), it's just... the Rogues. That seems to be DC's preferred method of packaging them, anyway.
    Oh yeah. Absolutely. And I love them that way. But there is one issue that comes with so inextricably linking the Rogues, though. While it does actually add depth to their characters that they're such a tight-knit group, it does also mean that they aren't as self-sufficient, and therefore, Flash's rogues gallery is basically comprised of the Rogues, Zoom (either Thawne or Zolomon), and Grodd...and that's kind of it for his big name villains. I'm just saying it'd be nice to see them invest in some villains that aren't one of those things.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 05-13-2019 at 01:41 PM.

  5. #20
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I'm talking more about how Bane not only is a big bruiser but how he burst onto the scene by dealing a major blow to Bruce. Its an archetype of villain that has popped up in some other heroes' rogues galleries. For Superman, it was Doomsday; for Spider-Man, it was Venom; etc.
    For Flash it's Grodd.
    Poison Ivy is more of a femme fatale than Selina, though, I'd say. She's more about controlling men and putting them under her spell. Selina is only really seen as a femme fatale because she tempts Bruce. And Ivy is more extricably linked to her love of nature than Ra's.
    Catwoman is totally a Femme Fatale. She oozes sexuality and uses that around people even when she's not around Batman.
    I'm just saying that, for a long time, its seemed that if writers wanted to make a new Flash villain, it was either "here's another speedster" or "here's another guy with a trick gun or boomerang." I'm not saying that Flash villains aren't interesting or compelling characters. A lot of them are. It would just be refreshing to see a prominent Flash villain aside from Grodd that isn't a speedster or a white man with some variation of a trick gun or gadget.
    But those trick guns or gadgets can be very varied.

    I mean, Weather Wizard can't do what Mirror Master does and vice-versa, Dr. Alchemy can almost do whatever the heck he wants, Trickster is pretty unique, and so on.
    I mean, can anyone even pick out a female villain in Flash's rogues that is as prominent as Catwoman or Poison Ivy or Harley Quinn or even Talia al Ghul? Golden Glider is mostly known as Captain Cold's little sister who tends to get fridged and, while Magenta was at least a valiant effort at a prominent female villain, she was Wally's villain, not Barry's.
    But Batman has the most prominent female villains of any comic hero aside from Wonder Woman, and his are arguably more famous then Diana's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yeah, but we should also be thinking about how the general non-comic reading public sees things and the optics. Comics are just as much a visual medium as they are a written one, after all. I mean, the similarities of the Rogues works when you sell them as a team of villains as opposed to individual villains, which DC does do more often than not. So, in a Flash film, for example, you could do a film with the Rogues as the main villains, all of them operating as a team under Captain Cold. However, if you tried to do two Flash movies, one with Heatwave and then the next with Captain Cold or Mirror Master, I think most people would think "well didn't he just fight a guy with a fancy gun in the last movie?"
    It would probably be like how they bunched a few of Spider-Man's villains together in Homecoming.
    Oh yeah. Absolutely. And I love them that way. But there is one issue that comes with so inextricably linking the Rogues, though. While it does actually add depth to their characters that they're such a tight-knit group, it does also mean that they aren't as self-sufficient, and therefore, Flash's rogues gallery is basically comprised of the Rogues, Zoom (either Thawne or Zolomon), and Grodd...and that's kind of it for his big name villains. I'm just saying it'd be nice to see them invest in some villains that aren't one of those things.
    I mean, you can still do one-off or individualized stories with The Rogues though. Johns did, Williamson has, they just inevitably still fall under the group moniker and back on the team.

    Just with those sets of villains I think you have plenty to drive Flash stories.

  6. #21
    all cops are bastards Elmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yeah, but we should also be thinking about how the general non-comic reading public sees things and the optics. Comics are just as much a visual medium as they are a written one, after all. I mean, the similarities of the Rogues works when you sell them as a team of villains as opposed to individual villains, which DC does do more often than not. So, in a Flash film, for example, you could do a film with the Rogues as the main villains, all of them operating as a team under Captain Cold. However, if you tried to do two Flash movies, one with Heatwave and then the next with Captain Cold or Mirror Master, I think most people would think "well didn't he just fight a guy with a fancy gun in the last movie?"
    Both of those characters have been fleshed out enough that they can be distinguished by anyone. There are different ways to tackle their powers, there are loads of methods in which they have been utilized. I completely disagree with your first notion. This is about the Rogues being overrated. Some of us have been reading comics for 20+ years so it's virtually impossible to look through the lens of the "average" person who hasn't read these comics or has limited knowledge, the most you could do is form an idea, but in most cases the "general audience" is a risky term because there are a number of ways we can consume media in this day and age and we can at times severely underestimate (or overestimate) something's popularity. The more "niche" something feels, the more it feels like something a "general audience" wouldn't know about it. In most cases you have to go in assuming the GA knows absolutely nothing and that's how stories are adapted, so there's no reason that a story can't be adapted the same way it was originally written. Because before we discovered said topic we were the general audience in that instance.

    In summary, you should read more Flash, because the Rogues are great characters and yes, they ARE diverse, and they ARE distinguishable, and since we readers are not idiots and can tell them apart, we should assume the same for any other parties who come across them.
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  7. #22
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    Sorely disappointed by the lack of respect for Cobalt Blue in Flash's rogues gallery.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
    Both of those characters have been fleshed out enough that they can be distinguished by anyone. There are different ways to tackle their powers, there are loads of methods in which they have been utilized. I completely disagree with your first notion. This is about the Rogues being overrated. Some of us have been reading comics for 20+ years so it's virtually impossible to look through the lens of the "average" person who hasn't read these comics or has limited knowledge, the most you could do is form an idea, but in most cases the "general audience" is a risky term because there are a number of ways we can consume media in this day and age and we can at times severely underestimate (or overestimate) something's popularity. The more "niche" something feels, the more it feels like something a "general audience" wouldn't know about it. In most cases you have to go in assuming the GA knows absolutely nothing and that's how stories are adapted, so there's no reason that a story can't be adapted the same way it was originally written. Because before we discovered said topic we were the general audience in that instance.
    I really don't see how that debunks my point. We as comic fans know the differences, but that's no guarantee that that's how the GA would look at it. The GA won't invest the time to read the comics and get to know the characters. So, of course, they rely mostly on aesthetics and optics. And we have to admit, most of Flash's villains, on the surface, are remarkably similar-looking. And it may sound shallow to say that, but comics are a visual medium.

    But I guess this is getting off topic a bit. My original point was not that there's anything wrong with Flash's current villains, but instead that there should be more of an effort to bring diversity by creating more villains and investing in them...and not simply introducing yet another speedster. Maybe that got lost in communication.

    In summary, you should read more Flash, because the Rogues are great characters and yes, they ARE diverse, and they ARE distinguishable, and since we readers are not idiots and can tell them apart, we should assume the same for any other parties who come across them.
    I've actually read a lot of Flash. I've read the entire Mark Waid run, a lot of Johns's run, etc. I know what makes the Rogues unique and distinguishable from a character perspective. However, I don't know if we can really say that Flash's rogues are the strongest collection of villains outside of Batman's since there is at least some repetition and recycling of MO seen throughout the bunch.

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yeah, but we should also be thinking about how the general non-comic reading public sees things and the optics. Comics are just as much a visual medium as they are a written one, after all. I mean, the similarities of the Rogues works when you sell them as a team of villains as opposed to individual villains, which DC does do more often than not. So, in a Flash film, for example, you could do a film with the Rogues as the main villains, all of them operating as a team under Captain Cold. However, if you tried to do two Flash movies, one with Heatwave and then the next with Captain Cold or Mirror Master, I think most people would think "well didn't he just fight a guy with a fancy gun in the last movie?"
    Ah, I see what you mean.

    Yeah, that could be a concern but I think as long as the film's design teams made sure to give each villain a distinct look and the scripts played to the villains' unique traits, it wouldn't be a problem.

    I think a bigger problem with a "Flash v single Rogue" movie would be actually making a lone dude with a ray gun look like a real challenge. I mean, Cold's a genius when it comes to planning a heist and working around Flash's advantages but I think audiences would only accept so much PIS from Flash before they get fed up with it. When a dude can run so fast he can catch bullets I don't think people will be impressed with him losing to a guy who has, basically, nothing more than a flamethrower.

    I think, especially when it comes to movies, you keep the Rogues together as a team. They're all more interesting when they can bounce off each other anyway, and their combined powers and skills makes for a really solid threat. And Flash has tons of other villains for sequels, like Grodd, Zoom, Polaris, etc etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adset View Post
    Sorely disappointed by the lack of respect for Cobalt Blue in Flash's rogues gallery.
    Did they ever do more with Blue beyond that one arc? I don't recall him or his family ever showing up again?
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  10. #25
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    The Flash's Rogues are in NO way overrated!
    Captain Cold
    Mirror Master
    Weather Wizard
    Trickster
    Heat Wave

    All awesome characters in their own right. And (I think) the first in comics to band together against the hero and form their own 'villain team' on a permanent basis.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Ah, I see what you mean.

    Yeah, that could be a concern but I think as long as the film's design teams made sure to give each villain a distinct look and the scripts played to the villains' unique traits, it wouldn't be a problem.

    I think a bigger problem with a "Flash v single Rogue" movie would be actually making a lone dude with a ray gun look like a real challenge. I mean, Cold's a genius when it comes to planning a heist and working around Flash's advantages but I think audiences would only accept so much PIS from Flash before they get fed up with it. When a dude can run so fast he can catch bullets I don't think people will be impressed with him losing to a guy who has, basically, nothing more than a flamethrower.

    I think, especially when it comes to movies, you keep the Rogues together as a team. They're all more interesting when they can bounce off each other anyway, and their combined powers and skills makes for a really solid threat. And Flash has tons of other villains for sequels, like Grodd, Zoom, Polaris, etc etc.

    I am a firm believer that good writing can fix just about anything. But in the case of Cold being the sole villain in a Flash movie. I think I could buy it. Snart is a strategist. I think there are dozens of ways that he can challenge The Flash without directly confronting him. Maybe extreme low temperatures can disrupt his speed. Give him more cold-related gadgets. Misdirection, ultimatums, etc. I honestly think it's possible. I think Cold challenging Flash on his own is way more believable than Digger doing it.
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  12. #27
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    every rogue gallery is going to have its own unique characteristics and it's a mistake to say that they should all be equally diverse and tick representation equally. not to mention the issue has nothing to do with the rogues being overrated or underrated. I think the flash's rogue gallery is on par with Batman's and shares a lot of similarities with each other but they are underrated if anything. Both in universe and out they are low key players never featuring in or driving event's like other rogues may do such as joker, bane luthor, braniac or Black Adam as they prefer to avoid any meta human attention.

  13. #28
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Hell yes, they are WAY overrated among some people. That is the people who put them up there with Spider-Man and Batman foes, and who say that Flash's rogues are better than Superman's. I would put Flash's villains more on the level of Green Lantern's, which isn't particularly impressive. Grodd is the only Flash villain who has interested me. And I guess Weather Wizard is pretty cool.

  14. #29
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Did they ever do more with Blue beyond that one arc? I don't recall him or his family ever showing up again?
    I don't believe he ever did.

  15. #30
    Incredible Member Adset's Avatar
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    I would like to meet these fans who are comparing Flash's rogues gallery to Batman and Spider-Man. This seems like an argument meant for a niche group of Flash super fans, but it's hardly a consensus opinion, so it seems like a strange metric to be handing out "over" or "under"-rated grades.

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