How would you tweak DC characters you think are too similar?

[Vampire Savior]

I'm not so sure. I think comics don't pay well enough, so most of the art talent goes to other industries like Hollywood and advertising, where they can make a much more comfortable living for less work. The people who work in comics do so because they love comics. Now that creator-owned comics are a viable thanks to massive success stories like the Walking Dead and Hellboy, the creators who are left also know they don't necessarily have to work for the Big Two to do what they want in comics, which reduces the talent pool DC and Marvel has even further.

Obviously this is all subjective, but I don't think Didio is too far off the mark in saying there isn't enough talent to sustain the number of books DC is publishing when there are better paying gigs in other industries and web comics and indies mean creators don't have to draw Spider-Man or Batman for people to know who they are. Frankly, I don't blame artists for not wanting to work in comics anymore. You have a better chance of making it into the NBA, producing 22 pages of great art every month is gruelling, your career will likely be short and might not pay very well, and you'll struggle to get work when you get older.

Well, what happened is that they got too corporate, and their head hunting has changed a lot because of that. Way back in the day, if you got your work in front of an editor, and you can find them at conventions, and they felt you were good enough, there was a chance you would get hired. Or they would take your contact info and get in touch with you when they felt they could use you for something. That's what happened to Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, and many others. Nowadays, what they will want to do is put you through all these workshops and crap and you've got to get accepted into the workshop, which isn't easy. A lot of people are like, "forget this, it's not worth it." And I ultimately agree. It's not worth jumping through their hoops and probably still not getting in. And even if you go through their workshop, you might be seen in some New Talent Showcase, or whatever, but it still doesn't guarantee you will get a lot of work.

So what you're saying is true in that the talent has more and better options these days, but DC makes the problem even worse by often making the process of getting new talent more complicated than it should be. They're also full of themselves. If you haven't been published anywhere, they probably won't even consider you even for the workshop. And yes, at the end of the day, they aren't paying that much, so again, it's not worth it to a lot of people.

But, that talent is out there, and if DC is willing to pay them to draw, they will take the jobs. I see talented creators taking indie jobs all the time, because they like drawing and like getting paid for it.

All this said, I still believe that DiDio made his cutback primarily because the books aren't selling enough and thus the company is consolidating.

[lemonpeace]

I'd shake up all the Earth Lanterns, there are 7 of them doingpretty much the same damn thing. Everyone is getting new roles (and colors in some cases); Kyle's a White Lantern, Guy is Red, Jess stays Green but Simon is Blue and is partnered with Jess again. John becomes a Guardian but as a more proactive counterbalance to the standing Guardians and Hal becomes the new entity of willpower, not the new host of ion but the legit entity of willpower. This way they can take on diverse threats of varying scale depending on which Lantern is involved and they are less interchangeable narratively.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

But, that talent is out there, and if DC is willing to pay them to draw, they will take the jobs. I see talented creators taking indie jobs all the time, because they like drawing and like getting paid for it.

Which is exactly what talented creators should be doing. I love the DCU dearly, but I'd much rather see young creators make something new and exciting of their own, rather than waste that talent working on someone else's properties. If whatever cool new stuff they create gets the attention of DC and Marvel and they still want to take a crack at doing something special with these old characters? Great, I am all over that, but I'd rather see the next Kirby do their own thing before they do their own take on Kirby's thing.

[j9ac9k]

I'd shake up all the Earth Lanterns, there are 7 of them doingpretty much the same damn thing. Everyone is getting new roles (and colors in some cases); Kyle's a White Lantern, Guy is Red, Jess stays Green but Simon is Blue and is partnered with Jess again. John becomes a Guardian but as a more proactive counterbalance to the standing Guardians and Hal becomes the new entity of willpower, not the new host of ion but the legit entity of willpower. This way they can take on diverse threats of varying scale depending on which Lantern is involved and they are less interchangeable narratively.

I think part of the problem is when certain characters are seen as "too similar" by people (creators as well as readers), they're not given their due. Rather than character work, creators rely on simple aesthetic differences or changing their powers, as though powerset = character, but we know that's not the case. There have been a billion shows about cops and maybe some of them are similar, but it hasn't stopped anyone from writing about cops. The GL franchise in particular just needs enough writers who can write those kind of stories then you won't need them to be different by wearing a different ring, or having a different job. I think the Bat family benefits from being in a superhero genre that enough writers feel comfortable in - street crimes, psychopaths, vigilante stuff, etc.

As with anything I think you just need writers who care about the characters they're writing about, then they will develop their own "voice" which will make them different from the others and unique. (i.e. Jack Knight was totally different from other Starmen because of who he was, rather than that he wore goggles on his head and a leather jacket)

[WonderScott]

Their personalities and POVs make them distinct to me, not their powers.

In a way, it's like saying to me that all law enforcement officers or all accountants or marine biologists need to be differentiated from each other when they're all human and have some base skills in a range that are somewhat all the same.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think part of the problem is when certain characters are seen as "too similar" by people (creators as well as readers), they're not given their due. Rather than character work, creators rely on simple aesthetic differences or changing their powers, as though powerset = character, but we know that's not the case. There have been a billion shows about cops and maybe some of them are similar, but it hasn't stopped anyone from writing about cops. The GL franchise in particular just needs enough writers who can write those kind of stories then you won't need them to be different by wearing a different ring, or having a different job. I think the Bat family benefits from being in a superhero genre that enough writers feel comfortable in - street crimes, psychopaths, vigilante stuff, etc.

As with anything I think you just need writers who care about the characters they're writing about, then they will develop their own "voice" which will make them different from the others and unique. (i.e. Jack Knight was totally different from other Starmen because of who he was, rather than that he wore goggles on his head and a leather jacket)

I agree. Any character, no matter how similar, can be great with good writing and creators who care about them. That said, I think superheroes are very much about big archetypal ideas, so looking at two characters with the same power set, appearance and status quo tends to cause problems. These superheroes live and breathe based upon their specificity, too. There have been hundreds of Superman, Batman, & Spider-Man knock-offs, but few of them have lasted because the specifics of Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, & Peter Parker work so well.

With Green Lanterns, it's relatively easy. While they are all strong-willed space cops defined by how well they triumph over fear, each has their own distinct personality. The similarities between Guy & Simon are a bit too strong for my tastes, but that could be solved by giving each of them very different roles to play within the DCU and the Lantern Corps.

Amanda Waller & Etta Candy requires creators to be ever mindful of making sure the differences between the two are always there. I think lightening Etta up a lot more, and giving her back some of the comedy she had in the Wonder Woman movie would be a good start. Waller is not known for her wry sense of humor.

With Barry Allen & Wally West, I think the problem is trickier, because they both work wonderfully as their own characters. They both have distinct differences about them that make them great and beloved. However, there is so much overlap between them that I don't know how they easily they can co-exist without making one or the other feel redundant. And, if you start making tweaks to either one to make them different, you are bound to lose something special. You can't revert Wally to his Kid Flash days or Barry to his less popular Pre-Crisis persona, but keeping Wally West side-by-side with Barry Allen after he's fully grown into The Flash feels wrong, too, unless one of them is given a more distinct raison d'etre from the other, which is why Jay Garrick always worked.

My preference would be for Wally to be reunited with his family and head off to explore the hidden mysteries of The Speed Force, Hypertime, and the Multiverse. That would give him a purpose beyond being The Flash who isn't the main one anymore because the other one has a TV show and movies. That way, Wally could still be the Wally who grew up worthy of taking Barry's place, while Barry could still retain all the elements from Wally that worked so well. Plus, Barry & Wally could continue to have annual team-ups.

[Killerbee911]

I will go with Wally West and Barry Allen. I would give Wally West Godspeed identity because that suit /design is just too good waste. It does not have to be Godspeed but a clear different identity with no "Flash" in the name is needed for Wally. So now you have clear different superhero identity no stepping on toes. I would give Wally his family back and let Barry be single for awhile so you have clear contrast again. Personality wise Barry should be more serious,Where Wally is more of Quipper. Barry Allen would be CSI, Wally would be a Mechanic(probably with his own shop) and part time inventor sometimes working with star labs. Lastly I would tweak their powers Wally would be faster more in tune with Speed Force and deal with more time travel related stuff and has speed stealing. Barry would be master of all the esoteric stuff phasing through walls, throwing bolts of lighting , better healing, etc. Wally is raw speed with less fine tuned control, Barry is pinpoint control and efficiency. I would cement Captain Cold as Barry arch nemesis, I would cement Zoom as Wally arch nemesis. Central City is Barry, I would move Wally to Fictional city in either Texas or California because those states are huge and telling a local story with speed has room. Lastly if they aren't going use the set up with Barry then give Wally Vibe and Killer Frost as support characters. That is what I would do there is more than room for two of them

[Aahz]

Don't forget Batwoman there. Once DC put Babs back in the suit, she has been bouncing willy-nilly between being various ages and experience levels. So at one end she is competing with Spoiler and Orphan, on the other with Batwoman.

In case of Batwoman you have imo a bigger problem with her and Huntress having to similar roles and personalities. When she was older and more experienced Barbara was quite different from Kate.

[kjn]

Which is exactly what talented creators should be doing. I love the DCU dearly, but I'd much rather see young creators make something new and exciting of their own, rather than waste that talent working on someone else's properties. If whatever cool new stuff they create gets the attention of DC and Marvel and they still want to take a crack at doing something special with these old characters? Great, I am all over that, but I'd rather see the next Kirby do their own thing before they do their own take on Kirby's thing.

If working for DC as an artist is wasting one's talent, then DC is doing something wrong. One thing every aspiring artist need is thoughtful, nuanced, and experienced criticism, and that's one of the things that editors could and should provide.

[kjn]

Their personalities and POVs make them distinct to me, not their powers.

In a way, it's like saying to me that all law enforcement officers or all accountants or marine biologists need to be differentiated from each other when they're all human and have some base skills in a range that are somewhat all the same.

At the same time, as Bored noted, superheroes (and their supporting cast) are more archetypal ideals than characters. They are made distinct both by personality, by iconography, by powers, and by their history. In a way, Flash works as several different characters because there has been several incarnations of Flash, while Superman doesn't work as anyone else but Clark Kent because no one but Clark Kent has been Superman.

There is also the issue of writing distinct characters. In tv and movies it is generally not much of a problem because you have real actors putting distinct mannerisms and looks onto each character, but comics and written fiction has a lot less detail to work with. Thus the need for clear and meaningful distinctions between characters.

[Restingvoice]

Batman as a street level detective and nightwing as a global superspy.

Ugh. The fact that we have to do this when they're already super different, appearance, age, and personality wise, just because of that one person, is annoying.

Amanda and Etta are easy. Just bring back her old personality. While she has rank now, doesn't mean she has to lose her cheerfulness.

Barry and Wally are really difficult. The Flash power itself is already overpowered and now we have two people competing for the title. No matter who holds the main character of the Flash book, the other will be considered lesser. I don't think it's possible to satisfy fans of either.

I want to make them co-star in a series called A Tale of Two Flashes or Flash Family, but I can imagine the villain will have to be even more ridiculous and overpowered, facing two Flashes.

So I guess one of them should move town. Barry can stay in Central City since his job is there. That doesn't solve the title and main character problem though. One's The Flash. The other... The New Flash? It's probably gonna sell better than New Super-Man... but then it'll just be the same problem as always. I really don't know about this one.

Was sticking Wally in Titans enough in Rebirth? Sales were pretty good. It's the story that just wasn't allowed to go anywhere. So in theory, if the story's allowed to go somewhere with Wally, is it enough for him to be just in Titans and not have his own solo title?

[Agent Z]

Artemis Crock and Emiko Queen

Note: I am using the YJ cartoon version of Artemis

Both characters are half-Asian children of super villains who are skilled in archery.

For me, I'd play it up as quantity vs quality. Emiko might be the better archer but Artemis is skilled in numerous other weapons such as swords, knives, and bolos. Also, Artemis would use a crossbow while Emiko uses a bow.

In terms of personality, Artemis would be more introverted while Emiko would be more extroverted.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

If working for DC as an artist is wasting one's talent, then DC is doing something wrong. One thing every aspiring artist need is thoughtful, nuanced, and experienced criticism, and that's one of the things that editors could and should provide.

Agreed. Waste is probably the wrong word. I think some writers and artists benefit greatly from working with veteran creators and editors at DC & Marvel, who are able to make them better, which they can then bring to their creator owned stuff. But I think all creators would benefit from doing something on their own first before working on corporate stuff. I don't really want to read DC or Marvel comics created by creators whose only artistic goal in life is to write more Superman, Batman, & Spider-Man comics. There has to be more in the tank than that, otherwise these creators won't be bringing much, if anything, new to the table.

[WonderScott]

At the same time, as Bored noted, superheroes (and their supporting cast) are more archetypal ideals than characters. They are made distinct both by personality, by iconography, by powers, and by their history. In a way, Flash works as several different characters because there has been several incarnations of Flash, while Superman doesn't work as anyone else but Clark Kent because no one but Clark Kent has been Superman.

There is also the issue of writing distinct characters. In tv and movies it is generally not much of a problem because you have real actors putting distinct mannerisms and looks onto each character, but comics and written fiction has a lot less detail to work with. Thus the need for clear and meaningful distinctions between characters.

Some of the earliest superheroes are archetypal ideals, but many characters who have followed put a spin on that ideal or juxtapose it in a meaningful way that serves the spinoff character as well as the original characters. The bevy of Bat-inspired vigilantes is the grandest example of this, but your Superman example is also fair game. I don't think of Kara or Connor as the same as Clark, because of their personalities and approaches to life, despite exhibiting similar powers.

If we're simply reducing superheroes down to archetypes, we're going to have abandon a lot of doppelgänger, clone, derivative, inspired by, etc. characters who add a lot of flavor to various speculative fiction superhero universes by virtue of that character's qualities, unique experiences, or schemas they might have or adhere to.

It was a given in my original comment that meaningful distinctions between characters with similar powers must be made or it all falls apart. The Green Lantern Corps is a good and bad example of this depending on the creative team. I've never been bothered by the multitude of Lanterns from Earth, *IF* writers and artists were able to pick up on the distinctions Johns and several of his artist contributors laid down when he developed his epic from Rebirth to Blackest Night. The characters approaches to space cop-ing and the uses of their powers were well thought out and unique to the individual.