How about a Titans line reboot ?

[Lee Stone]

I think that's another factor that has hurt the IP, actually. Are the Titans a bunch of sidekicks or a particular generation that is still using the name? Obviously DC has tried to say it's both but I'm not sure if that works. I think it splits expectations of the brand.

To me, the Titans are essentially DC's Fantastic Four (or were). The NTT, especially, were a group of seven people who came together for an initial reason that eventually gave way to them staying together because of the bond they shared.
Wally left, to be replaced by Jericho. Much like Thing and She-Hulk.
But Titans eventually came to be the book you read for those characters.

One thing it had going for it, that the FF didn't, was that there was no clause that you had to be a real family member to join.
Membership in Titans was open to those that the team would accept into their artificial family.

[caj]

Raven's ultimate Trigon story was being set up years prior by having her appearance slowly deteriorate.

While I agree with the majority of your post, George Perez said in an interview that this was purely accidental. He was unaware that he had evolved Raven's look over the years. It was when they were going back to the original Trigon story that they realized this and decided to use it as part of the second story.

[darud]

I say the success of NTT (which are the best and became the classic Titans) and of Wolfman and Perez era have two main reasons

1- Titans weren't anymore JL junior, weren't just few sidekicks trying to emulate their mentors. NTT have a lot of new, interesting and powerful characters unrelated with JL and who bring their own set of villains, powers, abilities and story arcs possibilities that divert from being copies of JL

2- Titans were treated as an independent team not under the shadow and control of JL. Even more, Titans were rivaling JL as importance and power, have their own villains, some of them even way above JL paygrade (as Trigon) or just as dangerous as Joker or Luthor (Deathstroke) and were capable to deal with them by themselves.

Once they weren't written like that they started to diminish again. Even the original cartoon surprising (for some) huge success was build on the same premises

[byrd156]

Whatever they're gonna do with Titans, the first thing they need to do is change their point of view that Titans is a lesser copy of Justice League and a team of sidekicks because apparently, it doesn't matter to them they're adults now. Otherwise, they're just gonna fall back to the same old story, same old mistakes.

You the writers will continue the same mistakes, the same stories.

DC is pushing these Titans as if they were just some team and that the League is the end all be all of superhero teams. If you put a writer on a book that views the team as lesser then it will come across in the book. One of my all time favorite books, JLA/Titans The Technis Imperative had the Titans stand up to the League when they treated them like crap. That Titans annual about the Titans on the Watchtower being talked down to was embarrassing as a fan of these characters. These characters have been past the growing pains and teenage years for decades, they need to stop being treated like unruly children that need to be disciplined. Donna basically got grounded and Batman told them that their clubhouse needed to be disbanded. It's insane to me that these ideas made it past the editor let alone onto the comic page.

[Lee Stone]

While I agree with the majority of your post, George Perez said in an interview that this was purely accidental. He was unaware that he had evolved Raven's look over the years. It was when they were going back to the original Trigon story that they realized this and decided to use it as part of the second story.

Ah. I fell for it.

[Dred]

Flash fans probably wouldn't enjoy a Flash book that intentionally avoided using the Rogues.

The best Flash run ever barely ever used The Rogues and the writer wasn't very fond of them. I get what you're saying but this isn't a very good example. It's an example of the exact opposite -- creating new things and concepts revitalizing a run.

[Digifiend]

Best run ever? That's an opinion, not a fact. Whose run are you talking about?

[Aahz]

Titans fans expect to see Trigon (if Raven is on the team), the Brotherhood of Evil, the Fearsome Five, Deathstroke, Blackfire (if Starfire is on the team), Cheshire and Brother Blood at some point.
You need a good mix of new villains and established rogues.

Honestly I would glad if they start creating new villains. Most of the old ones are not that great.

- Deathstroke is probaly by far the best, but he is his own character now
- Brotherhood of Evil are good, but they are more doom patrol villains
- With Trigon they are repeating just the same story over and over again
- Fearsome Five are just meh
- Brother Blood is not single characcter, the identity has been used by a different character in amost every major storyline that included the church of Blood, non them were that interesting
- Cheshire is just a convincing thread for the whole team (without a lot of PIS)
- and Blackfire is more Kory personal villain

[king81992]

Honestly I would glad if they start creating new villains. Most of the old ones are not that great.

- Deathstroke is probaly by far the best, but he is his own character now
- Brotherhood of Evil are good, but they are more doom patrol villains
- With Trigon they are repeating just the same story over and over again
- Fearsome Five are just meh
- Brother Blood is not single characcter, the identity has been used by a different character in amost every major storyline that included the church of Blood, non them were that interesting
- Cheshire is just a convincing thread for the whole team (without a lot of PIS)
- and Blackfire is more Kory personal villain

The Fearsome Five need to be given actual personalities in the comics and expand their roster to the Terrible Ten. It's really bizarre that they have defined personalities(except Shimmer who just shows up to get BTFOed in YJ) in every animated adaption and the comics still haven't given them proper personalities yet.

[Zero Hunter]

The best Flash run ever barely ever used The Rogues and the writer wasn't very fond of them. I get what you're saying but this isn't a very good example. It's an example of the exact opposite -- creating new things and concepts revitalizing a run.

I disagree completly. Your talking about the Mark Waid's original run which did start out great, and yes Waid hated the Rogues and did his best to either get rid of them or just flat out kill them off. The problem was that once he did that he gutted the book. All he had left was the Speed Force and speed villains and he ran that concept into the dirt. His run is like what the Flash TV show is now just speed villain after speed villain over and over. That was one of the reason the Johns run was so embraced was he brought back the Rogues and even created a ton of new ones and brought some diversity back to the foes Flash was fighting instead of the evil speedster cycle Waid got into.

[Dred]

Best run ever? That's an opinion, not a fact. Whose run are you talking about?

Mark Waid. At bare minimum it is easily the most influential run in modern history even if someone's tastes don't line up with it.

I disagree completly. Your talking about the Mark Waid's original run which did start out great, and yes Waid hated the Rogues and did his best to either get rid of them or just flat out kill them off. The problem was that once he did that he gutted the book. All he had left was the Speed Force and speed villains and he ran that concept into the dirt. His run is like what the Flash TV show is now just speed villain after speed villain over and over. That was one of the reason the Johns run was so embraced was he brought back the Rogues and even created a ton of new ones and brought some diversity back to the foes Flash was fighting instead of the evil speedster cycle Waid got into.

"Start out great" boy this is a hot ass take we're having here. Waid used a total of 2 evil speedsters as the villains in his entire run. Thawne once and Savitar once, both in the first half of his run, so I have no idea what you're even talking about. Johns also had a total of two arcs with a speedster villain. Waid's run was built on the protagonists and the Family, something the Flash show has fucked up time and again.

The only writer who overused Speedster villains are the writers that came after flashpoint. Venditti and Williamson. Manapul also only used two, though he turned Grodd into a Speedster which was a weird change.

[caj]

I say the success of NTT (which are the best and became the classic Titans) and of Wolfman and Perez era have two main reasons

1- Titans weren't anymore JL junior, weren't just few sidekicks trying to emulate their mentors. NTT have a lot of new, interesting and powerful characters unrelated with JL and who bring their own set of villains, powers, abilities and story arcs possibilities that divert from being copies of JL

2- Titans were treated as an independent team not under the shadow and control of JL. Even more, Titans were rivaling JL as importance and power, have their own villains, some of them even way above JL paygrade (as Trigon) or just as dangerous as Joker or Luthor (Deathstroke) and were capable to deal with them by themselves.

Once they weren't written like that they started to diminish again. Even the original cartoon surprising (for some) huge success was build on the same premises

Agree completely with this. Great post.