Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 72
  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    11,850

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    The sad fact is that Titans, as we think of it (Dick, Donna, Garth, etc), doesn't have a real hook other than our attachment to a book that ended 25 odd years ago and characters whose relevance is equally faded. It sucks, I know, but every attempt to try to recapture that magic has failed. Dick struggles to maintain a decent book despite being the first Robin, and easily the most marketable.
    This.

    DC has tried for two decades to make a Titans reunion successful. It never is. That lightning can't be put back in the bottle and attempts to do so only highlight how inferior the new attempt(s) looks. Even when a reunion looks like it might be successful for five seconds it doesn't last.

    I dont agree with Dick struggling to hold a solo though; even now, a year into this horrible Ric stuff, he's outselling a bunch of books. He's not even the lowest selling Bat-title, last I knew. Nightwing is actually a really stable mid-level seller no matter what kind of crap DC pulls with it. The fact that sales are as low as they are now......it's taken a lot of effort on DC's part to drive the book down this low. Any other character would've been canned due to low sales by this point. Nightwing is a pure beast in the fandom, and apparently we dont die easy.

    But other than that, yeah I agree with you. You want the NTT to matter again? Stop trying to copy what Wolfman did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You know why Superman can fight the same six villains for eighty years and it's okay, but the NTT can't do the same thing? Because the success of the NTT was largely wrapped up in the development and growth of its roster; a phenomena rarely seen in the Big 2. You can't take a book who's premise was all about growing up (and actually showing that), freeze it in amber, and expect it to still be successful, because it'll lose the thing that made it special in the first place.

    Instead of doing another Wolfman rehash, ask yourselves what a bunch of professionals in their middle 20's are doing. Then, instead of having the NTT fight Slade again and talk about how special their friendship is, do that.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  2. #47
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    8,284

    Default

    You guys keep saying how they keep going back to NTTs, but when you actually look at the recent Titans books it’s the Fab 5 they keep going back to. Now it’s gotten to point where they are trying to make the Fab 5 into the NTT by inserting them into what the NTTs did. Not that I’m saying they should do a NTTs reunion.

  3. #48
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    10,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You guys keep saying how they keep going back to NTTs, but when you actually look at the recent Titans books it’s the Fab 5 they keep going back to. Now it’s gotten to point where they are trying to make the Fab 5 into the NTT by inserting them into what the NTTs did. Not that I’m saying they should do a NTTs reunion.
    Interestingly, the one time that a relaunch did work (which was Johns), it was modeled after NTT: Cyborg, Changeling, Starfire, Raven, a Robin, a Kid Flash and a Wonder Girl (and a Superboy for extra credit).
    And the book lasted eight years until the line-wide reboot of 2011.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  4. #49
    Fantastic Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    297

    Default

    Still annoyed how the League imperiously dismissed the Fab 5, who had been successful as a team for years. Lazy writing , with lasting damage to the characters.

  5. #50
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    39,959

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    Interestingly, the one time that a relaunch did work (which was Johns), it was modeled after NTT: Cyborg, Changeling, Starfire, Raven, a Robin, a Kid Flash and a Wonder Girl (and a Superboy for extra credit).
    And the book lasted eight years until the line-wide reboot of 2011.
    It also had Geoff Johns in his prime as a DC writer, which probably helped.

  6. #51
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Kansas City, MO
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You guys keep saying how they keep going back to NTTs, but when you actually look at the recent Titans books it’s the Fab 5 they keep going back to. Now it’s gotten to point where they are trying to make the Fab 5 into the NTT by inserting them into what the NTTs did. Not that I’m saying they should do a NTTs reunion.
    Again the characters were not the problem, the terrible writing team is.

    You can do a classic lineup or a NTT lineup or a Team Titans lineup or whatever and make it work. Just don't get someone like Abnett under the current heads of DC. Abnett had to do so much with trying to build the Titans up from literal nonexistence in this universe, reestablishing Wally, redefining a lot of characters that haven't appeared for years at that point and so on.

    These characters were fighting an uphill battle before their book even started.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  7. #52
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    1,910

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I think the core issue with the Legion of Superheroes and the Titans is that they played it safe when they needed to take a risk with the franchise, while they took a risk when they probably should have continued the status quo.
    I agree with this.

    One of the things Hickman has said that has me interested in his X-Men is that he called out how for the last few years the X-Franchise has been “telling stories about past stories” instead of evolving. That is the exact same situation the Titans are in. Oh sure the roster can change but it always comes down to Slade, Brother Blood, Trigon or some other callback to the Wolfman era. That needs to stop. The franchise has wallowed in nostalgia for far too long. It needs someone with a long-term vision for the franchise that is willing to shake the entire concept of what it means to be a Titan up.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2018
    Posts
    2,556

    Default

    Whatever they're gonna do with Titans, the first thing they need to do is change their point of view that Titans is a lesser copy of Justice League and a team of sidekicks because apparently, it doesn't matter to them they're adults now. Otherwise, they're just gonna fall back to the same old story, same old mistakes.

  9. #54
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    1,092

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    You guys keep saying how they keep going back to NTTs, but when you actually look at the recent Titans books it’s the Fab 5 they keep going back to. Now it’s gotten to point where they are trying to make the Fab 5 into the NTT by inserting them into what the NTTs did. Not that I’m saying they should do a NTTs reunion.
    What are you talking about? Only Rebirth had the fab five together in decades. Before that it was never the case and almost always had some combination of Raven/Beast Boy/Cyborg/Starfire on the crew to elicit NTT stuff. NTT had 3 members of the Fab Five on it anyhow so even when they do NTT throwbacks it's still sort of Fab Fivey.

    Garth and Roy were rarely included due to how much they fucked over Roy and how much they ignored Garth.
    Last edited by Dred; 05-16-2019 at 12:11 AM.

  10. #55
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    8,284

    Default

    Grayson’s Titans combined Fab Five and NTT plus new members (but was pretty Fab Five centered), Winicks Titans NTT + Roy (so again basically combined), Titans Hunt Fab Five, Rebirth Fab Five. And Roy was actually included even after Cry for Justice when Slade took over.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-16-2019 at 01:55 AM.

  11. #56
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    11,850

    Default

    And even when they do some sort of Fab5/NTT mix (which is just adding Garth and Roy, so not a huge change in the first place) it's still usually NTT threats; Slade, HIVE, blah blah blah.

    Lee mentioned how the Johns run was a NTT revamp using the new Kid Flash, Robin, etc., and that worked because (aside from this being Johns in his prime) they weren't recycling the same "growing pains" stories with the NTT, but their namesakes. You can't do "growing up" stories with the NTT when they've already grown the hell up, but you *can* do it with the legacies who're now using the names.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  12. #57
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    10,395

    Default

    Granted, Batman can't escape Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, Scarecrow, Ra's al Ghul, Mr. Freeze and Two Face.
    Superman is tied to Lex Luthor, Brainiac, Metallo and Zod.
    The villains kinda define who the heroes are, and fans of the character expect to see them.

    Titans fans expect to see Trigon (if Raven is on the team), the Brotherhood of Evil, the Fearsome Five, Deathstroke, Blackfire (if Starfire is on the team), Cheshire and Brother Blood at some point.
    You need a good mix of new villains and established rogues.
    Flash fans probably wouldn't enjoy a Flash book that intentionally avoided using the Rogues.
    Batman is fortunate, because he's acquired such a huge assortment of enemies that they could be used in a parade of appearances and no one would tire of them. But he does still get a new foe every once in a while that sticks.

    And I agree that growing pains stories should be left to Teen Titans and Young Justice, not the Titans.
    Batman isn't perpetually held in a 'Year One' phase (although.. I'd probably like him then).

    Even the X-men have adapted. When the original team formed, and well into the first year of the All-New X-Men team, the focus was on acquiring young people with mutant powers and training them.
    After the roster got full (and became IP marketable), they stopped recruiting straight to the team and dumped them off in the New Mutants.
    New members were still joining but no longer to learn or hone their powers. They were being added basically to keep the appearance of change so it wouldn't stagnate.

    By this time, the X-Men became a full-fledged superhero team, who's sole purpose was to fight supervillains and look cool doing it. Often those villains targeted mutants, but it wasn't a requirement. A lot of personal grudge enemies, too.
    And they wouldn't turn away from fighting a standard supervillain that you'd see in any comic. Because they were a superhero team.
    Really no different from the Avengers and Fantastic Four as the Braves are from the Astros and White Sox.

    When you get down to it, what makes a team work, isn't so much their purpose (it does help in the first couple stories, though), but rather the characters and the creative team.
    People choose to read Team A over Team B because they like certain characters or they like the creative team.
    Team C usually gets created to give characters a place to be because Team A and Team B are full.
    How would you like to be a superhero and told that 'no, you can't be in a team because the Justice League has no room for you'.
    Kinda like being told that you can't be in a football team because the Cowboys are full.

    There seems to be no problem with having thousands of superheroes, despite them not being necessary because Superman, Wonder Woman, Batgod, Green Lantern and Flash exist.
    There should be no problem having multiple teams. Even with the same purpose.
    What makes them different is the characters involved, who they fight and the creators.

    You could bring out a new team today, with Huntress, Power Girl, Booster Gold, Nightwing, Cyborg, Starfire and Firestorm and I would be all over it.
    And I would enjoy it if had great art, they fought an exciting mix of new and classic villains and the writer developed a good chemistry between them.
    I would buy it a thousand times over Justice League, even though their purpose would be essentially the same.
    What would make them different would be the personal stake each of the heroes have in being there right now.
    Last edited by Lee Stone; 05-16-2019 at 09:19 AM.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  13. #58
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    775

    Default

    People may disagree with me, but what I think the Titans need is a good mystery. And by that, I don't mean that it needs to be tied to something that happened to them when they were in their early teens. Just something where readers are given clues but it takes maybe over a year or two to solve.

    As long as you have good stories each month with plenty of action, a great mystery keeps bringing readers in.

    I reference the Wildebeest storyline - some may disagree with me, but I was hooked on finding out who was behind that. And the payoff was amazing IMO.

    The same thing could be said for the Terminator/Terra storyline that went on for several years. Readers knew what was going on - even if the Titans didn't. But probably everyone expected Terra to turn on Slade and side with the Titans. When it didn't happen, it was a major payoff for that story.

    If you're going to borrow from Wolfman, realize that he created new villains and situations for them. He created new characters and relationships as well. As others have said, move forward not backwards.

  14. #59
    Ultimate Member Lee Stone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    10,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    People may disagree with me, but what I think the Titans need is a good mystery. And by that, I don't mean that it needs to be tied to something that happened to them when they were in their early teens. Just something where readers are given clues but it takes maybe over a year or two to solve.

    As long as you have good stories each month with plenty of action, a great mystery keeps bringing readers in.

    I reference the Wildebeest storyline - some may disagree with me, but I was hooked on finding out who was behind that. And the payoff was amazing IMO.

    The same thing could be said for the Terminator/Terra storyline that went on for several years. Readers knew what was going on - even if the Titans didn't. But probably everyone expected Terra to turn on Slade and side with the Titans. When it didn't happen, it was a major payoff for that story.

    If you're going to borrow from Wolfman, realize that he created new villains and situations for them. He created new characters and relationships as well. As others have said, move forward not backwards.
    I would say, if you were to borrow from Wolfman study his style not the product.

    The reason why certain stories 'worked' in his Titans was because of the techniques he used.
    The end of Judas Contract was in his head years before, when Terra appeared on the scene. Her whole purpose was to give a sympathetic character and play on readers expectations of him giving them their 'Kitty Pryde'.
    Every line she uttered in her appearances reinforced this. Readers wouldn't know her true meaning behind some statements for years, disregarding them as casual chit-chat.

    Even Deathstroke was a development over time, also culminating with Judas Contract. From Grant's death, Slade's misguided oath of revenge up to Jericho choosing the Titans. 46 issues later, there was the payoff.

    Raven's ultimate Trigon story was being set up years prior by having her appearance slowly deteriorate. And it wasn't until Cyborg brought it to the others' (and readers') attention that anyone took notice.

    It's things like that, that forward thinking, that writers like Wolfman, Levitz and Claremont used to great effect.
    Today, that's been snuffed out mostly because of the writing for trades mentality, where everything has to be spread out over six issues but all wrapped up by the end of the trade.
    Another problem is that today's writers don't have the same job security that those three had in the '80s. Not unless you're a friend of management or their current fave star player.
    You could be setting up an epic story with #1 and get replaced as writer on the eighth issue or just be cancelled to make room for another Batman title.

    The only reason Tom King has gotten where he is today is because he fought to get Omega Men the 12 issues it was promised. That made the biggest impact on his career. If the series was cancelled early, the payoffs would have been lost and the book would've been a cataclysmic failure.
    Love him or hate him, he's developed some good longform storytelling that gets readers invested in the story (let's just ignore Heroes in Crisis for a second).
    But most writers don't get that opportunity.
    Or if they do, they don't take advantage of it. Probably because they didn't think they'd still be on their book 12 issues later.
    A line-wide reboot could happen at the snap of a finger.
    "There's magic in the sound of analog audio." - CNET.

  15. #60
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    11,850

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Stone View Post
    And I agree that growing pains stories should be left to Teen Titans and Young Justice, not the Titans.
    Batman isn't perpetually held in a 'Year One' phase (although.. I'd probably like him then).
    I think that's another factor that has hurt the IP, actually. Are the Titans a bunch of sidekicks or a particular generation that is still using the name? Obviously DC has tried to say it's both but I'm not sure if that works. I think it splits expectations of the brand.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •