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  1. #526
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    I literally forgot this show was still playing, even though I bought CBS all access just to watch it. Time to end that subscription.
    You can't quit now, Discovery is about to start, and no one can leave their house. It's the perfect storm!
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  2. #527
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    There was no jump. Picard died. They just scanned his brain patterns before he died and created a duplicate. The Picard that we started the series with is dead.
    I would disagree. Star Trek doesn't use the idea of "souls." Brain patterns equals "alive" here. In their world, there's no functional difference.

  3. #528
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    And he was right, they could have thrown on a few more years.

  4. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Just saw the season finale.

    They opened one of those giant portals but in space as opposed to the sky.
    Seven said that she is going to stop killing so many people...baby steps.
    Legolas is still useless.
    Jurati...is still a murderer but everyone seems to be cool with it.
    Soji tried to summon a Reaper but no one seems to mind.
    Rios..is still smoking
    Raffi..is magically off drugs and is being paired off with....Seven?

    PICARD IS DEAD! The current Picard we have now is just a recreation of the one that died! Given how some people feel about this show and Trek in general right now that is dangerously meta.

    Riker is the only character that was...well...in character

    Still better than Discovery. Hopefully we are done with the Android stuff and can move on to the plight of the poor holograms.
    I preferred DIS S2, I thought it was good and better than PIC. The highlights were Pike and Spock. PIC was wack, I had high hopes for it but it was such a let down man.

  5. #530
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Styles View Post
    I preferred DIS S2, I thought it was good and better than PIC. The highlights were Pike and Spock. PIC was wack, I had high hopes for it but it was such a let down man.
    If the best thing about the season was the guest stars did you really like Discovery better?

    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby
    And he was right, they could have thrown on a few more years.
    Along with enhanced reflexes and a bump in strength. Nothing as drastic as Soji but something along the lines of a fit person in their twenties. As for the soul argument? I'm not using that. I'm saying that he is a clone....but if a transporter breaks you down and rebuilds you on the other side and in some cases makes another you (This happened to Riker in the TNG episode "Second Chances") you could make the argument that he is just as real.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 03-26-2020 at 04:47 PM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  6. #531
    Incredible Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Overall good finale and great season.

    What I liked:

    1. Picard. Patrick Stewart is just amazing and this season was great as he played a broken down man looking for redemption.

    2. Seven. Though I wish she had been used more, I'm thrilled that they brought in a character from another show besides TNG. Maybe some DS9 characters next season?

    3. Soji. I actually like Dajh better, though we didn't get to see a lot of her. I hope she is back next season.

    4. Rios and the holograms. Great levity at time to a somber character.

    5. Modernized Romulans. One of the big flaws of most prior Star Trek shows and many sci fi shows in general is how every alien culture tends to look and dress the same with the same haircuts to same clothing. I really liked that we finally saw variation.

    What I didn't like:

    1. Raffi. The actress is fine but her character sucked. From overuse of J.L. to having next to no redeeming qualities.

    2. The out of nowhere romance with Seven and Raffi at the very end. I can't recall but did they even speak to one another in the one episode where Seven was on the ship? I'm fine with making Seven bi but at least put some effort into establishing the relationship.

    3. No Enterprise. The scene with Riker in the last episode was awesome but he should have been the temp Captain of the Enterprise.

    4. Why didn't the Romulan housekeepers go with Picard. They were kick ass in a fight, knew a lot of Romulan spy stuff, and obviously cared for Picard. Yet they let him go off on some damn fool crusade all by himself when they could have been a big help. They were awesome characters and I don't feel we got enough of them.

    5. Elnor crying again. I like the idea of his character but he was basically just Romulan Legalos with a sword instead of a bow and he cried way too easily.

  7. #532
    Incredible Member TriggerWarning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    You can't quit now, Discovery is about to start, and no one can leave their house. It's the perfect storm!
    Disco sadly is probably delayed due to the Corona virus. They apparently aren't done with effects and post production on all the episode.

  8. #533
    MYTH SMITH ∞ !!! G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post

    3. Soji. I actually like Dajh better, though we didn't get to see a lot of her. I hope she is back next season.
    Dahj or Soji? If it's the former that isn't likely. If the latter, nothing we've seen suggests she wouldn't be.

    2. The out of nowhere romance with Seven and Raffi at the very end. I can't recall but did they even speak to one another in the one episode where Seven was on the ship? I'm fine with making Seven bi but at least put some effort into establishing the relationship.
    Agreed. And apparently they are both bi, since Raffi has an ex-husband. Granted she could still be a lesbian who hadn't discovered herself yet at that time. But then the same could be said of Seven. I didn't watch much of Voyager but the only "traditional" romance I know involving her was with Chakotay, which was 20 plus years ago. She appears to have had a relationship with the Troi look alike from earlier in the season.

    5. Elnor crying again. I like the idea of his character but he was basically just Romulan Legalos with a sword instead of a bow and he cried way too easily.
    When did he cry the first time? Totally drawing a blank on that one.
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  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    I would disagree. Star Trek doesn't use the idea of "souls." Brain patterns equals "alive" here. In their world, there's no functional difference.
    It's the Teletransportation Paradox. If you are pushed through a transporter a being that looks a lot like you may pop out on the other end, but you as a conscious being will cease to exist.

    Also, Star Trek does have souls, they were mentioned in Discovery. Star Trek is very much soft sci-fi.
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  10. #535
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Well, I think this was the worst season in all of Star Trek;
    >> There isn't a single good episode. Discovery had good episodes in both seasons despite its bad over arching plots, but in Picard the larger narrative drags down every episode down.
    >> I genuinely cannot understand the character motivations for most of the crew and many of the emotional moments feel unearned. This is rarely an issue in most media I am experience, including things I'm critical of, but characters like Raffi, Elnor, Rios, Agnes and Soji experience such odd and out of place character swings that makes them feel inauthentic. For Discovery, I never had any troubles understanding why certain characters behaved in the way they did.
    >> The Reapers are stupid. Literally the only 'oppression' synths face in this show is because they left a beacon behind and the Romulans justifiably acted on their message.
    >> I actually do have an issue with female characters 'suddenly' becoming bisexual/lesbian. This happens a lot in media for female characters and rarely does it ever happen to male characters.
    >> The elder machine god looks almost identical to the rogue A.I. from Discovery. This is just laziness. actually, now that I think of it, the squid/octopus robot trope is from the Matrix.
    >> The orchids are stupid. On any other planet they would make sense, but in this context they are just distracting.
    >> Rios's previous encounter with synths is stupid. Not only is it a lazy way to tie his character to the greater plot, but instead of killing them, why wasn't he ordered to capture them, and hold them for interrogation? They had to be near their planet too, right? Also why would synths choose to board a federation ship when they were living in a hermitage because of the federation? Dumb, dumb, dumb
    Last edited by Pinsir; 03-26-2020 at 08:24 PM.
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  11. #536
    Mighty Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    Overall good finale and great season.

    What I liked:

    1. Picard. Patrick Stewart is just amazing and this season was great as he played a broken down man looking for redemption.
    Stewart is a great actor but their was no need for Picard to be broken down or looking for redemption. I remember hearing that the show was originally going to be about Picard being an archaeologist and finding something big. I would preferred that instead of seeing him get chewed out every episode over stuff he had no control over by an ungrateful universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    2. Seven. Though I wish she had been used more, I'm thrilled that they brought in a character from another show besides TNG. Maybe some DS9 characters next season?
    This was a case of everything you want in the worst possible way for me. Round Seven was taken and hammered in Kurtzman's strong woman square peg. Seven walking around dual wielding blaster rifles? Luckily Jeri Ryan can really act so she was able to sell the new character she was playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    3. Soji. I actually like Dajh better, though we didn't get to see a lot of her. I hope she is back next season.
    Agreed, I get the feeling that Dahj wouldn't have tried to summon Reapers like Soji. Sure, Soji called it off but Dahj wouldn't have did it period.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    4. Rios and the holograms. Great levity at time to a somber character.
    Speaking of those, why didn't any help Picard during the final battle? Oh well, the writers didn't care so we shouldn't either.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    5. Modernized Romulans. One of the big flaws of most prior Star Trek shows and many sci fi shows in general is how every alien culture tends to look and dress the same with the same haircuts to same clothing. I really liked that we finally saw variation.
    That is the difference between being one of the only two prestige shows on a streaming network and a show with a much smaller budget.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    What I didn't like:

    1. Raffi. The actress is fine but her character sucked. From overuse of J.L. to having next to no redeeming qualities.
    I think Raffi burned up all the audiences goodwill with her whining about JL's fancy house and furniture while forgetting the fact that she lives in a post-scarcity society and she doesn't have to live in the dessert and could easily get treatment for her addiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    2. The out of nowhere romance with Seven and Raffi at the very end. I can't recall but did they even speak to one another in the one episode where Seven was on the ship? I'm fine with making Seven bi but at least put some effort into establishing the relationship.
    I'm sure they will put just as much effort into it as they did into Rios and Jurati, none.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    3. No Enterprise. The scene with Riker in the last episode was awesome but he should have been the temp Captain of the Enterprise.
    Enterprise is being saved for season two, they need something to keep people watching. Hey, it worked for Discovery. Remember when people were saying that the loss of two planets really shouldn't have been that big a blow to the Romulan empire? Well apparently the show now agrees because they can summon a fighting force in record time. It's like the Romulans strength depends on what the writers need out of them at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    4. Why didn't the Romulan housekeepers go with Picard. They were kick ass in a fight, knew a lot of Romulan spy stuff, and obviously cared for Picard. Yet they let him go off on some damn fool crusade all by himself when they could have been a big help. They were awesome characters and I don't feel we got enough of them.
    But then we would be deprived of Legolas who cuts heads off and Jurati who murdered a guy!

    Quote Originally Posted by TriggerWarning View Post
    5. Elnor crying again. I like the idea of his character but he was basically just Romulan Legalos with a sword instead of a bow and he cried way too easily.
    Did anyone find it strange that there was two all female organizations with one male member? We're they linked? Will they ever explain this? Nah...
    Last edited by Anthony W; 03-26-2020 at 07:26 PM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Stewart is a great actor but their was no need for Picard to be broken down or looking for redemption. I remember hearing that the show was originally going to be about Picard being an archaeologist and finding something big. I would preferred that instead of seeing him get chewed out every episode over stuff he had no control over by an ungrateful universe.
    That's the pitch that Stewart refused to take part in. This was the pitch that got him excited enough to come back. He wanted to do broken and damaged Picard. A man dealing with regrets, and coming to the end of his life looking back at the days behind and finding the future just not looking worth it. As an aging man himself, it probably spoke to him in a more visceral way.

    I have my problems with the execution, mostly in terms of plotting. The serialized plot was garbo, tropes and nonsense from stem to stern. But the character writing along the way was top notch. I really felt for the new characters, and Stewart gives Picard such gravitas and weight even when he's falling down. If they can figure out how to keep this level of character in the interactions but deliver the goods on the plot end they are going to have something truly special on their hands.

    As it is, it was ok. Good, but definitely not great. The finale was probably one of the weakest eps plot wise. But man if Riker and Data didn't get me. Seven had some good stuff here, as did several of the new characters. I'm going to miss Hugh, I still feel like that was a waste. I'm in for season 2.

  13. #538
    Extraordinary Member Cyke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Riker is the only character that was...well...in character
    I thought Picard, at least when it came to reasoning with Soji each time and getting the eureka moment of trying to set an example for her in the middle of all this crisis, was classic for him and a strong return to form.

    Also, the line "Fear is an incompetent teacher" would easily fit in either TOS or TNG (spoken by Picard, of course).

    -----

    Anyway, as for the rest of the episode, overall it was an improvement over last week (it's very rare in Trek where Part 2 is better than Part 1), and I thought it ended strongly, but it was pretty blah. At some point I gave up on the episode resolving everything that had emerged last week and tried to take this week for what it's worth, but then that signals to me that this season started strongly and grew weaker in the second half. The best episode perhaps remains the Riker/Troi outing.

    Piecemeal thoughts:
    - It's great to see Riker as always, and he's sitting in the big chair the same as he always has. Considering that he's semi-retired, it makes sense that he wouldn't have the USS Titan, but it would've been really great to see the USS Titan.

    - It's very disappointing to see a virtually-uniform armada of Starfleet ships, when I think the fleet's strength both on paper and visually is the sheer variety of ships. Even the Abrams movies had this variety, taking its cues from First Contact and DS9. I was also really hoping to see the return of 90s classics like the Akira and the Nebula, and maybe even LaForge's Galaxy-Class USS Challenger, all mixed in with newer, sleeker designs.

    - With that said, I'm sure there are now all these Trekkies going onto Youtube about how a couple hundred of "the biggest, baddest, most powerful ship Starfleet's ever built" (a line delivered terrifically by Frakes, of course) is in response to Starfleet becoming more militarized and rebuilding in a post-Dominion War galaxy.

    - Although, Riker swooping in to save Picard (just like in All Good Things!) kinda shows that Zhaban was right all along way back in Season 1, in that Picard really could've gotten Riker and maybe LaForge and Worf too, to help. But then again, with all their resources and expertise, this season would have been a 2-parter, tops. You think something's fishy on that Borg Cube? LaForge would've scanned for any anomalies before anything was up, easy. And Crusher would have staved off Picard's syndrome better than Jurati simply because Jurati isn't an MD, she's a cyberneticist (though Crusher would've been on top of Dahj and Soji's mystery since day 1, considering that she's also an expert on Data).

    - I'm ok with Raffi and Seven becoming a couple much more than Seven and Chakotay, only because Raffi and Seven just met whereas Voyager wanted us to believe that Seven and Chakotay was simply a subplot that we hadn't been paying attention to. Sparks can fly quickly for people who've just met, whereas Voyager wanted us to think not only was this romance some time in the making, but also significant for Admiral Janeway.

    - Seven's fight scene reminded me of her fight against the Rock, except there she (understandably) lost.

    - Data gets a proper death scene that's much better and much more thoughtful than the one we got in Nemesis. Also, the robe and setting, though not accurate, evoke his future at Cambridge from All Good Things.

    - Agnes' holographic faces were just too much Agnes.

    - Speaking of which, are they still going to turn her in? She did, y'know, murder her lover. Even if she's found innocent because it turned out to be some kind of telepathic manipulation from the mind meld, that still needs to be proven in court (imagine the legal precedents in the Star Trek universe. Yikes.).

    - I don't know what Season 2 would hold, and I'm glad that this episode and season didn't end on a cliffhanger. We need a resolution from week after week of cliffhangers. But I've argued before that Discovery should be an episodic show whereas Picard, being about an old man, should be serialized since he can't go one week to the next on a brand new adventure. And yet, here he is in a new body.

    - And, what's keeping this crew together, anyway? I mean, sure, you could make the case for Raffi, and Soji sticking together if Picard is the center of the group. Maybe Elnor if Raffi is adopting him (which wouldn't be a bad subplot for Season 2). But Rios has spent far more time as a charming rogue than under Picard's wing, Seven has her own personal mission with the Go Go Fenris Rangers, and Jurati really should be standing trial. Rios and Jurati in particular don't really have much personal motivation to stay with Picard, even if they respect him a lot. And that highlights to me how uneven the relationships between the ensemble have been developed. The cast is fine, but the relationships aren't quite there.

    - I'm going to miss Picard's artificial heart. Hey, he was confident it would handle Princess Mononoke's arrow.

    - Well, I'll just reiterate how much I enjoyed Picard-the-character in this episode. If he didn't feel like the classic TNG Picard in previous episodes, to me this episode he finally got his groove back, and I very much appreciate that he's a different character (not literally -- I'm kind of mixed about the new body) at the end than he was in the premiere. The spark of hope he got in the first episode when he put on his movie badge to hail Raffi was greatly expanded upon when he realized how he needed to speak to Soji.

    - I liked that Commodore Oh's helmsman or whatever looked like one of the Romulans from the '09 movie.

    - Commodore Oh leaving was the peaceful solution, yes, but it was so hammy that I expected her to grow a mustache just to twirl it, and to shake her fist while yelling at the screen, "I'll get you next time, Picard! Next time!"

    - Um, Narek, anyone?
    Last edited by Cyke; 03-26-2020 at 11:53 PM.

  14. #539
    Mighty Member C_Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    - And, what's keeping this crew together, anyway? I mean, sure, you could make the case for Raffi, and Soji sticking together if Picard is the center of the group. Maybe Elnor if Raffi is adopting him (which wouldn't be a bad subplot for Season 2). But Rios has spent far more time as a charming rogue than under Picard's wing, Seven has her own personal mission with the Go Go Fenris Rangers, and Jurati really should be standing trial. Rios and Jurati in particular don't really have much personal motivation to stay with Picard, even if they respect him a lot. And that highlights to me how uneven the relationships between the ensemble have been developed. The cast is fine, but the relationships aren't quite there.
    I think my biggest problem was with how the show ended. There's no real mission statement for the continuing mission of the La Sirena. I have no clue where they're headed, what the plan is. I don't need the entirety of next season told to me now, I don't even need a tease, but a line or two as to where they're going next would have helped a lot.

    I will say I disagree that there's no reason for the crew to be together. Jurati is there for Picard and Soji. She is the leading cyberneticist in the Federation and the La Sirena has two of the most advanced cybernetic beings known at the time. And for some reason she's with Rios. As for Rios, I either saw it here or on reddit, but someone described him as being Starfleet to the core. You say that he simply has a great deal of respect for Picard, but I think it goes further. He left Starfleet because his father figure betrayed his ideals and then killed himself. Picard represents a second chance for him.


    Overall, I really enjoyed the season, but I see what people may not have liked about it. I personally don't have an issue with broken Picard and to be honest, I find that a lot more compelling than a Picard who really hasn't changed since we last saw him. It seems as if Patrick Stewart shares that opinion. He never felt like he wasn't Picard to me. He felt like a Picard who was a little bit more tired than the last time we saw him. Someone who still held his convictions, but no longer had the strength to stand up for them all the time. That started to shift as the series went on and by the end, it felt like he more or less had his groove back to the point where he saved the universe and the synths with his dying breath.

    I will say, I'd be cool if he was a little bit more traditional Picard throughout next season. If this is the comeback, allow him to find that status quo. I also would be okay if the whole Admonition thing is completed. Yes, theoretically the Zhat Vash are still out there and the aliens could still come through, but I'd like to see a new story take shape.

  15. #540
    Niffleheim
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    Those quick scenes hinting at a Seven with Rios and Raffi next feels mismatched just like Chakotay all over again.

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