Star Trek: Picard

[Pinsir]

I just watched RLM's most recent review and its interesting that they brought up some of my points; that the Romulans are disjointed and the Mass Effect parallels, with Rich going so far as to say Picard is a rip off. They didn't even mention the synth ban which is a major part of Mass Effects lore and they still make a good case.

Considering how influential RLM is, this is going to cause a lot of damage to Picard's reputation.

[Gray Lensman]

I just watched RLM's most recent review and its interesting that they brought up some of my points; that the Romulans are disjointed and the Mass Effect parallels, with Rich going so far as to say Picard is a rip off. They didn't even mention the synth ban which is a major part of Mass Effects lore and they still make a good case.

Considering how influential RLM is, this is going to cause a lot of damage to Picard's reputation.

Maybe they can get the same judge who threw out the facts from the last lawsuit.

[Farealmer]

My only real issue with this turn of events is how to square the galactic threat with what we know of Star trek. Star trek is chalk full of god aliens that can wipe out whole species on a whim. If this synthetic federation isn't that powerful how have they not went the way of the Husnock by now?

[Anthony W]

Anyone find it strange that an Android can just...meld their mind with someone because they are a fan of Vulcan culture? As for the super race of artificial beings outside of time and space waiting to be summoned? I really hope it doesn't turn out to be The Q, but knowing Kurtzman... there is a good chance it's going to be The Q.

[TriggerWarning]

Another great episode. This continues to be the golden age of Star Trek.

I'm still lol'ing over all the people making Mass Effect ripoff complains as if Mass Effect wasn't directly influenced by the Borg storylines of Star Trek.

[Pinsir]

This was another bad episode. The editing was off and it felt like the entire episode was an attempt to make the whole thing 'emotional.' It brings me no pleasure in saying this, but...Discovery is the better show.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I just watched RLM's most recent review and its interesting that they brought up some of my points; that the Romulans are disjointed and the Mass Effect parallels, with Rich going so far as to say Picard is a rip off. They didn't even mention the synth ban which is a major part of Mass Effects lore and they still make a good case.

Considering how influential RLM is, this is going to cause a lot of damage to Picard's reputation.

RLM lost credibility a while back, they're not as influential as they were in their prime.

[Pinsir]

Another great episode. This continues to be the golden age of Star Trek.

I'm still lol'ing over all the people making Mass Effect ripoff complains as if Mass Effect wasn't directly influenced by the Borg storylines of Star Trek.

The Reapers never reminded me of the Borg though, even when they're revealed to be made of melted humans. They don't behave like the Borg do, nor do they have the same goals. If anything, the Citadel Counsel is a more direct influence from Star Trek, as its a confederacy of various different aliens that have formed some sort of confederation (and ME did it better too).

There is nothing wrong with being influenced by media and using those ideas in your work. There does come a point though where it feels like one can borrow too many ideas from a certain source and I think Picard has crossed that line. That doesn't mean the show is bad because of that though, but I think it means the series lacks a firm identity of its own.

[Cyke]

Mankinds interaction with machines is one of the major themes of TOS where as TNG was more interested in culture. You had sex bots, computer simulated warfare, automated starships, several cultures where machines govern society...

To add, I don't blame the show for re-classifying or codifying old androids as synths. It happens in real life, too, as more knowledge in any given field is gained and discussed. It would be weird if, for some reason, 25th century characters referred to Kirk-era androids as synths, but it'd be a natural evolution of labeling.

We even had that in Trek -- at some point, the term "black hole" stopped being used commonly and TNG/DS9/VOY characters called them various types of singularities instead.

RLM lost credibility a while back, they're not as influential as they were in their prime.

To say that RLM is influential too, I think, is kind of an overstatement. They're an online critic just as anyone else, and it's not like the channel is the Roger Ebert of Trek.

I get that there's an audience for this sort of critique, but there are times when I feel like Stoklasa's being way too critical, myopic, and nitpicky about the Trek he *likes,* never mind the Trek he doesn't like. We don't have to like the same things, and there's a healthy need to pick apart the things you like, but it's almost as if he finds no joy in what he does like.

I feel like I'd be more receptive to their complaints about Picard if they were said by someone else.

The Reapers never reminded me of the Borg though, even when they're revealed to be made of melted humans. They don't behave like the Borg do, nor do they have the same goals. If anything, the Citadel Counsel is a more direct influence from Star Trek, as its a confederacy of various different aliens that have formed some sort of confederation (and ME did it better too).

There is nothing wrong with being influenced by media and using those ideas in your work. There does come a point though where it feels like one can borrow too many ideas from a certain source and I think Picard has crossed that line. That doesn't mean the show is bad because of that though, but I think it means the series lacks a firm identity of its own.

The Mass Effect vibes are one thing, but there's a bit much taken from other sources as well that aren't fleshed out enough to warrant their inclusion, I feel. Even the camera work of their space battles is straight Battlestar Galactica, which looks "modern," but is pretty jarring. It's the turn of the 25th century; surely Steady Cam technology would've improved by then.

But the show not having much identity of its own (I like the show overall, but it really does need to work on its separation) leads me to a central problem -- I don't feel like the synths themselves have much of an identity either, and they're at the heart of the show. Soji has an identity, and that's great, but I feel like the second to the last episode of this arc is the wrong time to try to manufacture care for an entire culture that is at the heart of the show. So then it makes things like Sutra's heel turn that much more jarring.

Anyway, for the rest of the episode --

For the penultimate episode for the season, which would mean a lot of build up, this all came across as pretty rushed and bland. Ironic since one of the complaints for the first three episodes was about how slow they were. There were some good moments like Raffi's platonic "I love you, now say it back" moment (and it's good that we continue getting to see Picard do things he'd never do in TNG, even if they're small personal moments), balanced out with Picard's rather back-to-form stern analogy about killing an enemy (this really reminded me of Classic Picard). It's good to see a melding of an older, wiser Picard with the moral anchor that was Classic Picard.

But the parallel between Picard's failure with the Romulans and Picard trying to save the Synths was delivered with such a sledgehammer that you could almost see the writers off-camera going, "See! See! We're coming full circle!" That's nice and all, but I feel like the writers should have taken Soji's words to heart about how her people won't be used for his redemption. The writers are treating the synths as tools for Picard's story rather than as people in their own right, but can't seem to clarify where one ends and one begins narratively. (by contrast, the Bajorans could've been written this way for Sisko. But no, they were fleshed out very well, complete with their own autonomy, and the finale where they reject Federation membership was the ultimate statement of them being their own people, not tools for Sisko's story).

On a bigger note, if the writers can't treat the synths as their own people rather than as tools for someone else's story, how are we supposed to care about them? We can care about Soji, yes, but that's because we've had plenty of time to see her character struggles flesh out. Here we're just told that they're important without much weight to show for it. It's like the writers expect that, by giving us 50 Lals, we'll have 50x the weight. But no, Lal was treated with much more consideration as a character.

On a side note...

-- I do like the implication that La Sirena maybe more technologically advanced than the older Voyager, but Voyager was more powerful and sturdier. Of course Voyager's the bigger ship, but she never ever had that much risk in flying through a transwarp conduit, whereas the younger, sleeker La Sirena was shaking at her bolts.

-- It's always good to hear the Voyager theme and to see Seven

-- Elnor's a hugger, and if that's the case, I can forgive him hugging Seven last week. Just as long as that's a character trait of his, and not a cheap tool to force emotion to the audience.

-- I would think I'd like an episode with giant space flowers and a Borg Cube in the same shot a bit more, but here we are

-- I like the retcon that Soong androids are built as twins, starting with Lore and Data (though, Lore was inferior to Data despite being advanced enough for emotions. It was his jealousy that killed Dr. Soong). This doesn't explain B4, or maybe the lack of a twin explains why B4 was so inferior in the first place. Or maybe B4 had a twin out there that hasn't been found yet.

-- Beautiful Flower's twin is out there somewhere, right?

-- Brent Spiner playing yet another character separate from Data is a great tradition. But we need Jeffrey Combs back, like, yesterday.

-- Though this new Soong exists for exposition. If this new Soong turns out to be Lore in aged-disguise, it might have the plot make much more sense.

[Anthony W]

But the parallel between Picard's failure with the Romulans and Picard trying to save the Synths was delivered with such a sledgehammer that you could almost see the writers off-camera going, "See! See! We're coming full circle!" That's nice and all, but I feel like the writers should have taken Soji's words to heart about how her people won't be used for his redemption. The writers are treating the synths as tools for Picard's story rather than as people in their own right, but can't seem to clarify where one ends and one begins narratively. (by contrast, the Bajorans could've been written this way for Sisko. But no, they were fleshed out very well, complete with their own autonomy, and the finale where they reject Federation membership was the ultimate statement of them being their own people, not tools for Sisko's story).

On a bigger note, if the writers can't treat the synths as their own people rather than as tools for someone else's story, how are we supposed to care about them? We can care about Soji, yes, but that's because we've had plenty of time to see her character struggles flesh out. Here we're just told that they're important without much weight to show for it. It's like the writers expect that, by giving us 50 Lals, we'll have 50x the weight. But no, Lal was treated with much more consideration as a character.

I think that the writers want to do both. They want the Synth to be viewed as unique. They will also be tools for Picard's story, and there is nothing wrong with that the name of the show is Picard. Deep Space Nine managed to have their cake and eat it too with the Bajorans. Way back in the episode "Rapture" Bajor was set to join The Federation until Sisco ruined it lol. He said that Bajor would have to stand alone for awhile. We just have to wait and see if the Picard writers are as good as they are.

[Pinsir]

To say that RLM is influential too, I think, is kind of an overstatement. They're an online critic just as anyone else, and it's not like the channel is the Roger Ebert of Trek.

I get that there's an audience for this sort of critique, but there are times when I feel like Stoklasa's being way too critical, myopic, and nitpicky about the Trek he *likes,* never mind the Trek he doesn't like. We don't have to like the same things, and there's a healthy need to pick apart the things you like, but it's almost as if he finds no joy in what he does like.

RLM is influential not necessarily because they have extremely high viewership (though they do), but because their reviews are watched by other influential reviewers and even creators.

I should also say I've read more reviews on Picard and nearly every one of them has brought up Mass Effect. This is a stigma the show is going to retain for as long as people talk about it (its a Trek show, so forever).

[Jokerz79]

OMG this is so stupid Soong didn't build twins it's like the writers knew of Data and Lore and nothing else (Probably Did in Truth).

Soong built 3 androids before Lore all were failures due to their positronic brains not being stable (B4 might had been one IMO). He then built Lore who was a failure due to him being evil and he built Data after Lore had been dismantled. They looked like Soong because he was an egotist not because of some crap about him building Twins.

[Cyke]

OMG this is so stupid Soong didn't build twins it's like the writers knew of Data and Lore and nothing else (Probably Did in Truth).

Soong built 3 androids before Lore all were failures due to their positronic brains not being stable (B4 might had been one IMO). He then built Lore who was a failure due to him being evil and he built Data after Lore had been dismantled. They looked like Soong because he was an egotist not because of some crap about him building Twins.

This would be a little far-fetched, but I wonder if the tradition of twins on Coppellius was due in part to maybe some revisionism of Noonien Soong since they revere him as a god. His son A.I. Soong seems shady in his own right, but he did say that he came from a family of mad scientists (maybe one of those cases of being facetious-but-not-really). And there's nothing that contradicts the order of twins being built (after all, there were at least four versions of Soji/Jenna over the course of 15 years).

That is to say, the twins retcon and Soong being an egotist might not be contradictory. But tbh, that's not exactly implied in the show, that's just my stab at it.

Of course, if A.I. Soong turns out to be Lore in disguise, then that's all moot because Lore is a liar.

[Cyke]

RLM is influential not necessarily because they have extremely high viewership (though they do), but because their reviews are watched by other influential reviewers and even creators.

I should also say I've read more reviews on Picard and nearly every one of them has brought up Mass Effect. This is a stigma the show is going to retain for as long as people talk about it (its a Trek show, so forever).

I mean, I know RLM has its fans and even celebrity admirers (like Simon Pegg). But RLM was just as hard on Discovery (if not harder), and yet Discovery's ratings moved CBS to was renew for a 4th season, even before filming for Season 3 wrapped up. Discovery has its own stigma, but if RLM's criticisms translate to some sort of Trekkie-revolt, the numbers don't reflect that.

I wouldn't rule out the Howard Stern-like effect: Most Trekkies that watch Discovery do so because they like it, whereas the other portion that watches do so precisely because they don't like it, and want to see what else they pick apart. That's fine imo, but it would mean that RLM doesn't have that discouraging effect, either. And Trekkies are a pretty forgiving bunch -- as much as we rip apart The Final Frontier and Enterprise to this day, there's a growing number that develop some kind of affinity or fondness for them in retrospect. Maybe that's because they're more readily available than before, mixed in with nostalgia, but reception seems to warm up for the worst of Trek.

[Anthony W]

I mean, I know RLM has its fans and even celebrity admirers (like Simon Pegg). But RLM was just as hard on Discovery (if not harder), and yet Discovery's ratings moved CBS to was renew for a 4th season, even before filming for Season 3 wrapped up. Discovery has its own stigma, but if RLM's criticisms translate to some sort of Trekkie-revolt, the numbers don't reflect that.

To be fair, it's not like CBS All Access has anything else going on. Plus It's streaming on CBS All Access, it's not like they have much going on. So it's a perfect storm of lowered expectations.

I wouldn't rule out the Howard Stern-like effect: Most Trekkies that watch Discovery do so because they like it, whereas the other portion that watches do so precisely because they don't like it, and want to see what else they pick apart. That's fine imo, but it would mean that RLM doesn't have that discouraging effect, either. And Trekkies are a pretty forgiving bunch -- as much as we rip apart The Final Frontier and Enterprise to this day, there's a growing number that develop some kind of affinity or fondness for them in retrospect. Maybe that's because they're more readily available than before, mixed in with nostalgia, but reception seems to warm up for the worst of Trek.

So very true, but usually that affinity or fondness for something in retrospect only happens once something worse comes along. Notice that the fondness for Voyager didn't kick in until Discovery showed up. With so many Trek shows set to be made I'm sure something worse will come along to take Discovery's place. To quote Tilly from the episode of Discovery titled Brother "This is the power of math, people!" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt6lclzhJsw