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  1. #616

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    I'm constantly annoyed by how every corrupt Starfleet bureaucrat, especially the Admirals, have been retconned into Section 31 agents in the novels. Like, sometimes a bad guy being a bad guy on his own terms is more than enough, and it actually gives them more agency in their bad guyness rather than taking orders from someone else.
    Yeah the novels made Section 31 seem like Hydra. I don't know what was up with that.

  2. #617

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    Quote Originally Posted by Exciter View Post
    I think that's something unique to novel/book/game adaptations of TV/movie franchises, Star Trek being the major example. If you're reading the Star Trek novels, you're probably a big fan of the franchise who wants to see "Star Trek stuff" and will recognize the references. You get to see more of something you're familiar with, and I think that allows Star Trek fans to invest more into the adaptation. At the same time, you also probably know that the novels don't "count" as much as something that appears on film and might be less invested in something totally original that's not connected to anything in the franchise before.
    I get that to a point, but the novels set during DS9's first season all functioned as "missing episodes" and were great. So it can be done, but you're right, maybe the writers/publishers figured you're only here cause you're a fan so lets give you more of what you already saw.

  3. #618
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Grey View Post
    I get that to a point, but the novels set during DS9's first season all functioned as "missing episodes" and were great. So it can be done, but you're right, maybe the writers/publishers figured you're only here cause you're a fan so lets give you more of what you already saw.
    Sci-fi has always been a niche product. You need to please your core audience first and foremost. I was far from pleased with Star Trek Picard (indications are I'm far from alone) and likely won't watch a second season or continue with All Axess (sp/) as a result. Average people aren't buying loads of merch, or tie-in material (the novels and comics) the licensing of which is where CBS/Viacom makes most of its cash from Star Trek, and always has. Once again, Star Wars is doing a far better job. They are making tons of stuff I want to buy and do buy. The Mandalorian and Clone Wars Season Seven are far superior and truer to the source material than Discovery or Picard.
    Last edited by Celgress; 05-21-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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  4. #619
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Is it that Trek creators now are ashamed of the 'source material'? Is the mostly episodic, mostly hopeful nature of TOS and the TNG era considered a juvenile relic that must be done away with as much as possible for the new series to be considered 'modern' and 'good'?

    It seems like Star Trek and Star Wars are like DC and Marvel. DC makes their movies as grim and depressing as possible even when the source material doesn't call for it; Marvel embraces the colourful and optimistic source material. Which one is more successful? Even DC's wisely moving away from the grimdark, as WW and Aquaman were far better films than MoS or BvS or SS.

    Happily, the comments from the Strange New Worlds actors and exec seem to suggest a similar turn away from depression and deeply damaged characters. DIS s2 was already moving in that direction (I only refer to s1 as STD now). Maybe SNW will finally be a return to the principles of Trek of old... and just have bloody bottle shows and anomalies of the week again!
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  5. #620
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    Is it that Trek creators now are ashamed of the 'source material'? Is the mostly episodic, mostly hopeful nature of TOS and the TNG era considered a juvenile relic that must be done away with as much as possible for the new series to be considered 'modern' and 'good'?

    It seems like Star Trek and Star Wars are like DC and Marvel. DC makes their movies as grim and depressing as possible even when the source material doesn't call for it; Marvel embraces the colourful and optimistic source material. Which one is more successful? Even DC's wisely moving away from the grimdark, as WW and Aquaman were far better films than MoS or BvS or SS.

    Happily, the comments from the Strange New Worlds actors and exec seem to suggest a similar turn away from depression and deeply damaged characters. DIS s2 was already moving in that direction (I only refer to s1 as STD now). Maybe SNW will finally be a return to the principles of Trek of old... and just have bloody bottle shows and anomalies of the week again!
    You do know Joker made more money than Rise of Skywalker right? Also, just because something is less successful, that doesn't mean it isn't successful.
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  6. #621

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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    Is it that Trek creators now are ashamed of the 'source material'? Is the mostly episodic, mostly hopeful nature of TOS and the TNG era considered a juvenile relic that must be done away with as much as possible for the new series to be considered 'modern' and 'good'?

    It seems like Star Trek and Star Wars are like DC and Marvel. DC makes their movies as grim and depressing as possible even when the source material doesn't call for it; Marvel embraces the colourful and optimistic source material. Which one is more successful? Even DC's wisely moving away from the grimdark, as WW and Aquaman were far better films than MoS or BvS or SS.

    Happily, the comments from the Strange New Worlds actors and exec seem to suggest a similar turn away from depression and deeply damaged characters. DIS s2 was already moving in that direction (I only refer to s1 as STD now). Maybe SNW will finally be a return to the principles of Trek of old... and just have bloody bottle shows and anomalies of the week again!
    Modern Star Wars is hopeful now? Even it’s brightest moments are probably bittersweet at best.

  7. #622
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    You do know Joker made more money than Rise of Skywalker right? Also, just because something is less successful, that doesn't mean it isn't successful.
    You can't tell Joker as a happy story since that's certainly not true to the character... or common sense. The tone fit the story, and it was a good story. Rise of Skywalker wasn't good either in terms of tone or story.
    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    Modern Star Wars is hopeful now? Even it’s brightest moments are probably bittersweet at best.
    The Mandalorian and the various animated series, however, are violent yet hopeful. The movies? Bah. They're dead for the time being. Better to focus on other aspects of the SW universe since the Skywalker well has been poisoned.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  8. #623
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nx01a View Post
    You can't tell Joker as a happy story since that's certainly not true to the character... or common sense. The tone fit the story, and it was a good story. Rise of Skywalker wasn't good either in terms of tone or story.
    You can't really have a happy Suicide Squad either...If anything, SS should have been more violent and grittier. The DC films strongly reflect the creators involved with them, so the Zach Snyder films reflect his own aesthetic. Maybe you just don't like Zach Snyder films??
    #InGunnITrust, #ZackSnyderistheBlueprint, #ReleasetheAyerCut

  9. #624
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    You can't really have a happy Suicide Squad either...If anything, SS should have been more violent and grittier. The DC films strongly reflect the creators involved with them, so the Zach Snyder films reflect his own aesthetic. Maybe you just don't like Zach Snyder films??
    SS should have had a better script. Period.
    As for Snyder? Meh. His aesthetic was the one approved by the WB head honchos multiple times, so it was clearly what was unfortunately wanted at the time. It worked on 300 and Watchmen, not Superman.

    But back to Star Trek!
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  10. #625
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    Am I the only one who liked the Romulans going full Dark Space Elves for this series?

    They really felt like they finally delivered on the promised potential of the idea of being evil Vulcans and a nice antithesis to the traditionally more brute force and “barbaric” or “inhuman” badguy that the franchise usually has. They’re restrained but focused, deceptive yet dedicated, and actually seem to have some diversity in their culture.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  11. #626
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Am I the only one who liked the Romulans going full Dark Space Elves for this series?

    They really felt like they finally delivered on the promised potential of the idea of being evil Vulcans and a nice antithesis to the traditionally more brute force and “barbaric” or “inhuman” badguy that the franchise usually has. They’re restrained but focused,
    Restrained but focused? Remember when the order was given to Rios' captain to kill the synth they came across? Wouldn't it had made more sense to take advantage of their friendship so they can lead you to their planet? The planet that is so important to locate? Wouldn't it make sense to teleport in and hit Dahj with phasers set to stun and then teleport out? Nah, let's go in there with knives and then slap her around try to put a black bag on her head activating her programming that you already knew about going in.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    deceptive yet dedicated, and actually seem to have some diversity in their culture.
    Dedicated? Oh spent years working her way up the ladder in Starfleet and blows her cover so she can lead an armada? Surely there were other people that can do that. That position in Starfleet was insanely useful. Plus during the final battle she decides to waste time chasing Picard instead of directing her people to destroy the one giant mansion the synths were living in.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #627
    Ultimate Member Deathstroke's Avatar
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    Since I don't have streaming, I was finally able to get my hands on the DVD of the show. I watched the first three episodes last night and loved it. Can't wait to see the rest of the season!
    Beth Hart - Fire On The Floor CD Review

    Beth Hart February 23rd, 2017 Boston, MA Concert Review

    "I can't complain. I got to be Jim Morrison for the first half of my life, and Ward Cleaver for the second half." - Warren Zevon.

  13. #628
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyke View Post
    I'm constantly annoyed by how every corrupt Starfleet bureaucrat, especially the Admirals, have been retconned into Section 31 agents in the novels. Like, sometimes a bad guy being a bad guy on his own terms is more than enough, and it actually gives them more agency in their bad guyness rather than taking orders from someone else.
    I've even had arguments in real life where people say that Section 31, the Admiral who told Picard his job was to protect the Federation, not wrestle with his conscience and take the opportunity to destroy the Borg if he ever got the chance again and the Admiral who had a secret group develop the Phase Cloak were the ones really maintaining the Federation. Basically, the argument is that the Federation is a fantasy land for children, an idealism that cannot work in reality and these are the people saving them from the harsh realities. Very much an argument of idealism vs. reality.
    Power with Girl is better.

  14. #629
    Ultimate Member Deathstroke's Avatar
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    I watched episodes 4-7 last night. Some great stuff.

    Seven of Nine's character turn was incredible.

    Romulan Warrior Nuns? FANTASTIC.

    Saw it coming about one character but given I love totally love the actress, felt an unreasonable sense of disappointment in her, as stupid as that sounds.

    I'm hoping to finish the season tonight.
    Beth Hart - Fire On The Floor CD Review

    Beth Hart February 23rd, 2017 Boston, MA Concert Review

    "I can't complain. I got to be Jim Morrison for the first half of my life, and Ward Cleaver for the second half." - Warren Zevon.

  15. #630
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    I've even had arguments in real life where people say that Section 31, the Admiral who told Picard his job was to protect the Federation, not wrestle with his conscience and take the opportunity to destroy the Borg if he ever got the chance again and the Admiral who had a secret group develop the Phase Cloak were the ones really maintaining the Federation. Basically, the argument is that the Federation is a fantasy land for children, an idealism that cannot work in reality and these are the people saving them from the harsh realities. Very much an argument of idealism vs. reality.
    I get the point you articulate, but I'd submit that a characterization where The Federation is a facade stretched a cross a bleak, rotted reality is not Star Trek. It's a neat premise, a wonderful comment on American history, and makes for great sci-fi.

    However, ST was intended to be set in a future where our better angels had the upper hand, even if they hadn't completely won the day. Roddenberry took it too far, especially in the early seasons of TNG, but the underlying vision of hope is ST's core.

    I sometimes feel like creators that want to present this more cynical interpretation of Trek are like those comicbook writers that want to write superheroes, but go overboard trying to prove they're not writing kid's stuff.

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