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  1. #31
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    Back in the early '70s, when she was edited, written and drawn by Mike Sekowsky, I think mod Diana Prince was quite liberated without trying hard to be so. I doubt that Sekowsky himself had any sympathy for the women's movement--at that time he was in a custody battle with his ex-wife who had taken their daughter to the other side of the country. But that didn't bleed over into his work, as his Diana was as bad ass as The Bride in KILL BILL or Sarah Connor in THE TERMINATOR.

    However, Gloria Steinem who was in the same building as National Periodicals had a conversation with Carmine Infantino to liberate Wonder Woman, by returning her to the old fashioned look. When Sekowsky quit Wonder Woman, there followed many fitful attempts at reforming the character. Dorothy Woolfolk took over as editor for two issues--and that was supposed to launch a new liberated WW--but all she managed to get done were two issues of reprints before she was sacked. Then Denny O'Neil took over and while the comics he edited were nearly as good as Sekowsky's, his short run as editor ended in one of the most unintentionally offensive comic issues.

    This was WONDER WOMAN 203 (November-December 1972). Across the top of the cover was written: Special Women's Lib Issue. The nice Dick Giordano cover had Diana's friend Cathy Perkins kneeling, tied up and gagged in the forefront, as Diana comes to her rescue, unaware of a pack of hounds about to pounce on her. The actual story by Samuel L. Delaney was about female workers being exploited by an unfair boss (who looked suspiciously like Carmine Infantino). This was all satisfactory, if a bit heavy-handed and not really fully understanding the issues of the day. But what was really strange about the story is that Cathy Perkins was the liberated woman who was schooling Diana Prince on women's rights--and Diana was the one who was out of touch with the movement. And this was the comic that was supposed to be especially devoted to "Women's Lib."

    It just goes to show, that even when men were actually trying to placate feminism, they were so lost in how to do that they couldn't even get it right for one story where that was the agenda. And the next issue was WONDER WOMAN 204, where Robert Kanigher took Diana Prince back to being the unliberated, mousey "men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses" sterotype that he had turned her into once before.

  2. #32
    Incredible Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    WW84 needs to first and foremost be a well crafted movie with two female leads with a complicated relationship between them.

    If the characters and their story are strong, it will speak for itself. It shouldn't have to get heavy handed with things the way Captain Marvel sort of did.
    It's kind of genuinely funny when WW fan think Captain marvel was heavy handed. The movie barely had anything to do with her being a woman other than some clips that you will miss if you blink

    Imagine if they saw Wonder Woman faithful to the lore!

  3. #33
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Couple of things, folks.

    1. Real life politics has no place on this board. What actual Presidents in the real world actually do or do not do is for the Community politics threads.

    2. This is a discussion about WW84, not about Captain Marvel, so let's take the CM chat to the appropriate forum as well.

    Thanks!
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  4. #34
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VonHammersmark View Post
    She’s wise to distance herself from feminism which, contrary to popular belief, is not just anathema to “straight white misogynist dudes”, a crushing majority of women reject feminism as well

    Furthermore, I picture Wonder Woman as a free, independent thinker, as opposed to someone who adheres to an ideology. To be loyal to an ideology is to abandon the pursuit of truth and Wonder Woman is all about Truth
    Also you need to consider that concepts like this need to reflect the world as it is, not the world as people imagine it to be. You can't get out a soap box and start talking about problems that don't really exist and get taken seriously. You have to criticize flaws that are actually present in modern society.

    The WW movie went for the approach of providing an example of how to do things right.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I'm not saying that the romance between Steve and Diana was handled badly in any way; it's probably the best managed love story in any superhero movie to date. The problem with this scene mostly lies outside the movie itself. You have to look at how coming of age stories are presented for men and for women, and then at the pieces that are part of them. And there is a clear difference there: women's coming of age stories are far more likely to have a relation with a man as a core element. Marriage might not be the explicit end goal anymore, but the tendency is there. For men's coming of age stories, the reverse is not true: you can find plenty of them with no or little relation to a woman.

    Wonder Woman the movie only partially conforms to that pattern, in that Diana's coming of age story is much more about her relation to humanity as a whole, but it still includes a consummation of Diana's and Steve's relationship, which is a part of the pattern. Removing those two scenes might not have improved the movie as a movie, but it would IMO have made it a more feminist one.
    But, on the other hand, you can't portray relationships as bad. If a woman wants to have a man, she should be free to make that choice. Freedom of choice means she shouldn't feel obligated to do or do not. She should feel free to choose whichever she wants. There's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to get married and raise a family. But it needs to be her choice, and not what she does because she feels she has to do it. THAT is "empowerment": giving women the freedom to choose their own path in life.

  5. #35
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    How one views feminism and who is a "feminist" depends on who you ask and probably where you are, just like how many people have different views on the concept/definitions of "race", "self-identity" and "gender roles".

  6. #36
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    Are you kidding me... How can you be amazon and not be a faminist... O_o The comsept of amazon is rebeling against men rule for women rights. Amazons are all faminists. Saying Amazons are not faminist is like... Oh they are warriors but they don't fight...lol

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    But, on the other hand, you can't portray relationships as bad. If a woman wants to have a man, she should be free to make that choice. Freedom of choice means she shouldn't feel obligated to do or do not. She should feel free to choose whichever she wants. There's nothing wrong with a woman choosing to get married and raise a family. But it needs to be her choice, and not what she does because she feels she has to do it. THAT is "empowerment": giving women the freedom to choose their own path in life.
    All you're saying is correct. From the standpoint of the story in the movie, Diana's choice to make love with Steve is perfectly valid and defensible.

    But to take your last point seriously, women must also be shown the freedom to choose their own paths, and that means that many paths must be shown. And right now in our pop culture, the pattern that women need a man to fully become a woman is dominant. It is especially grating with the earlier boat scene, which explicitly rejected that narrative: Diana had been presented as a sexually aware and mature individual.

    So my point isn't so much that the going to bed scene was bad, but that it was a choice where the movie had the opportunity to be more feminist, and choose not to.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    All you're saying is correct. From the standpoint of the story in the movie, Diana's choice to make love with Steve is perfectly valid and defensible.

    But to take your last point seriously, women must also be shown the freedom to choose their own paths, and that means that many paths must be shown. And right now in our pop culture, the pattern that women need a man to fully become a woman is dominant. It is especially grating with the earlier boat scene, which explicitly rejected that narrative: Diana had been presented as a sexually aware and mature individual.

    So my point isn't so much that the going to bed scene was bad, but that it was a choice where the movie had the opportunity to be more feminist, and choose not to.
    Making the decision of having sex with a man doesn't make the movie less feminist. She was presented as a strong woman that makes her own choices and that was one of them.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldofrivia View Post
    It's kind of genuinely funny when WW fan think Captain marvel was heavy handed. The movie barely had anything to do with her being a woman other than some clips that you will miss if you blink

    Imagine if they saw Wonder Woman faithful to the lore!
    Wonder Woman was faithful to the lore. Depends on what lore you're looking at, because as we all know comic books are not consistent with itself. If Batman's various media pulls things from different sources and adds their own embellishments to create something new, I have to ask why WW should be any different? That's how adaptations work.

    I'm sorry you didn't like it, but most people were satisfied with it. Particularly I imagine the Perez fans because the Amazons were lifted directly from that run.

  10. #40
    Spectacular Member greymoon's Avatar
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    You either liked the movie or you didn’t, there’s really no in between.

    As for Jenkins’ comments...so be it. It’s her opinion. It’s not the first time someone said something like this in relation to WW.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    I think it's unfortunate when well-meaning people try so hard to distance themselves from the feminist label because of the association the word has with cartoonish feminazis. Wonder Woman is a feminist icon and character, which doesn't require "a chip on her shoulder". It only requires that she hate injustice and disregard gender as an obstacle no matter the social impositions.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member jetengine's Avatar
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    Honestly? It was most likely an effort to distance her and her film from politics which have blown up nastily in America and during a point when the future of the DCEU was very much in flux.

  13. #43
    Incredible Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurz View Post
    Are you kidding me... How can you be amazon and not be a faminist... O_o The comsept of amazon is rebeling against men rule for women rights. Amazons are all faminists. Saying Amazons are not faminist is like... Oh they are warriors but they don't fight...lol
    Diana was born into a world where women inhabit all roles and run everything. Why, exactly, would she be a feminist, given the basic definition of what a feminist is?

  14. #44
    Incredible Member Castling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    So does that mean Kryptonians are more powerful than gods? Are the New Gods not bulletproof? Can Darkseid be harmed by a bullet?
    A radion bullet? Yes.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castling View Post
    A radion bullet? Yes.
    Well, that's a little different.

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