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  1. #46
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    People ignoring the satellites because they don't feel important things happen in them is fine because they're satellites, they orbit around the main thing. Marvel would happily make ASM a weekly if it wasn't so difficult for production and they still had a wizard like Wacker, but they can't, so they let creators ship ASM fast but at a reasonable pace, so they can tell the big story and then make the missing dollars back with other things. B-Books should exist for people who need more Spider-Man, like the creative teams, and to explore parts of Peter's world that aren't relevant to the main book at the moment. But something's gotta take point.

    Casual fans and readers need to immediately know what the big canoli is, and while they can take a few licks like Jonah finding out the identity (and I don't like that that happened in Speccy, but it's been so good for everything that I'll settle for it), they definitely should not tolerate potentially missing these long plots like Harry Goblin and Owl-Octopus War and the meat of big status quo changes like the Felicia romance. Aunt May can sure fight cancer in a B-Book, but if it's actually going to incapacitate or kill her, a real shaker of Spider-Man's status quo, it should be a plot in Amazing. Stuff like classic supporting cast member Ned Leeds dying in a Wolverine crossover? No bueno. Simple is best. Clearly delineated title hierarchy is best.

    There is definitely a universe where Hunted happened in Friendly Neighborhood and Amazing readers have to suddenly open an issue to a funeral out of nowhere because Lizard chokes on Kraven Jr's intestines. Think of how wacky that sounds. That's what happened with Harry.

    The best part of accidentally creating this topic is actually that it wasn't even a criticism of JMS, it was just a general rule of thumb that satellites shouldn't be making up for key areas where ASM be lacking.
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  2. #47
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    People ignoring the satellites because they don't feel important things happen in them is fine because they're satellites, they orbit around the main thing. Marvel would happily make ASM a weekly if it wasn't so difficult for production and they still had a wizard like Wacker, but they can't, so they let creators ship ASM fast but at a reasonable pace, so they can tell the big story and then make the missing dollars back with other things. B-Books should exist for people who need more Spider-Man, like the creative teams, and to explore parts of Peter's world that aren't relevant to the main book at the moment. But something's gotta take point.

    Casual fans and readers need to immediately know what the big canoli is, and while they can take a few licks like Jonah finding out the identity (and I don't like that that happened in Speccy, but it's been so good for everything that I'll settle for it), they definitely should not tolerate potentially missing these long plots like Harry Goblin and Owl-Octopus War and the meat of big status quo changes like the Felicia romance. Aunt May can sure fight cancer in a B-Book, but if it's actually going to incapacitate or kill her, a real shaker of Spider-Man's status quo, it should be a plot in Amazing. Stuff like classic supporting cast member Ned Leeds dying in a Wolverine crossover? No bueno. Simple is best. Clearly delineated title hierarchy is best.

    There is definitely a universe where Hunted happened in Friendly Neighborhood and Amazing readers have to suddenly open an issue to a funeral out of nowhere because Lizard chokes on Kraven Jr's intestines. Think of how wacky that sounds. That's what happened with Harry.

    The best part of accidentally creating this topic is actually that it wasn't even a criticism of JMS, it was just a general rule of thumb that satellites shouldn't be making up for key areas where ASM be lacking.
    I'm going to strongly disagree. Like I said before: I don't think it honestly matters where the story is told (unless of course there isn't a reference to the aforementioned story) just so long as it's told. Amazing Spider-Man can still be Amazing Spider-Man, and to have that elitism about the series just feels icky. It's the same type of elitism that allows Marvel to barely have any collections for Spectacular despite that series being just as important. I get what you're saying about ASM filling out the whole thing, but it's not the only series and that's the reality of it.
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  3. #48
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    It creates another barrier to entry, another layer of inaccessibility. It's completely out of touch with how ordinary people consume entertainment.

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That history of different runs between ASM and satellites is superb.

    I do think that the Jenkins runs on Spectacular in the JMS era was pretty great. Then after he finished, you had Millar's Marvel Knights which because Hudlin's and then Sacassia's Sensational while you had FNSM by PAD (which is considered weak). In the meantime you had Kirkman's MTU and Spider-Man as a supporting character in Bendis' The Pulse and New Avengers.

    Anyway, I think satellites titles being its separate standalone thing is fine and dandy.
    There were definitely some good stories. I really liked Jenkins' Peter Parker Spider-Man, and Millar's run on Marvel Knights Spider-Man is one of my favorite Spider-Man stories ever.

    But there were still problems in terms of getting readers to believe a book mattered, or coordinating events between titles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I think there're no absolute formulas to what the main title should be, same with satellites (without entering in extreme examples, because they tend to dhrift conversations in never ending circles). If a writer has a great story, he can tell it wherever he's working at the moment and if he wants to take chances with risked decisions, be my guest. I would rather have a book that tries and fails that a book I don't care in checking out because I think is doing the same old stuff. Straczynski took chances and his is a well celebrated run, but of course it won't appeal to everyone. I'm not a big fan of the totemic aspect of Spidey's powers as a concept, but I think he did a good work with it in his time with John Romita Jr as a penciler. Does it has its lows going forward? Yes. But many writers I like in Spider-Man (JMS, JM Dematteis & Dan Slott) has done some of my favorite stories with the character and also some of my least favorites (Soul of the Hunter; OMD; That first arc after Goblin Nation; Clone Saga; etc). As I tried to explain before, it's part of having authors taking chances, sometimes they will stick the landing, other times they won't.
    This hints at another point, that satellite books allow Amazing Spider-Man to go in a different direction because they can focus on the other stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    I'm going to strongly disagree. Like I said before: I don't think it honestly matters where the story is told (unless of course there isn't a reference to the aforementioned story) just so long as it's told. Amazing Spider-Man can still be Amazing Spider-Man, and to have that elitism about the series just feels icky. It's the same type of elitism that allows Marvel to barely have any collections for Spectacular despite that series being just as important. I get what you're saying about ASM filling out the whole thing, but it's not the only series and that's the reality of it.
    This is messy. I do think there would be something wrong about having major events that affect every title occur in a satellite book because people should be able to enjoy Amazing Spider-Man by itself.

    But there's also a problem when nothing of significance happens outside of Amazing Spider-Man.

    If you're going with satellite books, this should be determined on a case by case basis.

    The proposal, the death of Aunt May, Aunt May learning the secret identity, and Spider-Man unmasking should definitely occur in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man as these change the status quo in big days.

    I'm not as worried about the death of Harry Osborn, which was the payoff to a two-year arc and involved a former supporting character who was no longer a major part of Amazing Spider-Man.

    I'd add the return of Peter's sister and Jonah learning his secret identity to this category. It's fine for those events to happen outside the main book for a variety of reasons (IE- Jonah was no longer active in ASM.)

  5. #50
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    I think one ultimate problem regarding satellite titles is whenever you have creators wanting to tell their story. They already have to work around editors and the rest of ongoing continuity, so to have another writer or two come on to a separate book and want to change the character in a certain way, they have to do it around what the other writer is.

    And while major events, like Jonah's discovery and Aunt May's cancer, are referenced in the main book, the actual stories' place in continuity compared to ASM is extremely hard to define besides broad timelines, and I know that can bother some people. For example, if you look at the first 6 issues of Zdarksy's Spectacular, it makes absolutely no sense continuity wise, that doesn't ruin the stories' themselves, but if you wanna connect it with all the other Spidey books for a complete experience, it can be a tad struggling. I know many people were hesitant to follow along with Spider-Man/Deadpool because of how separated it was from everything else going on.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  6. #51

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    I kind of feel that there's a divide in this thread between seeing this main/satellites divide as a creative thing or a commercial thing. Some people are making what's a commercial hassle into a creative issue while others (such as Mister Mets) are being conscientious in separating the two.

    And we forget that the Internet and its existence and so on means that the whole "Readers aren't informed of significant stuff" in satellites isn't as pressing as it was in the '80s and '90s. I know people will wonder about the "non-specialist" reader and so on, but for the new reader, the current ASM title will be just as impenetrable as Spectacular. In the earlier market word-of-mouth always ensured events in satellite titles got known. The major iconic moments people know of Felicia -- Peter revealing his identity to her and so on -- happened in Spectacular. JMD's Harry Osborn stories were well known that Raimi obviously borrowed it for SM-3. It's not true that these were ever obscure stories. And again without the extra space and time to devote to a story and character that Spectacular affords, it's not likely that they would be the same. Take The Owl/Octopus War which is a 7 part serialized story published in Spectacular at the time that most of ASM was still 2 or 3 parter stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    For example, if you look at the first 6 issues of Zdarksy's Spectacular, it makes absolutely no sense continuity wise, that doesn't ruin the stories' themselves, but if you wanna connect it with all the other Spidey books for a complete experience, it can be a tad struggling. I know many people were hesitant to follow along with Spider-Man/Deadpool because of how separated it was from everything else going on.
    According to Zdarsky, he got to use Jonah because Slott wasn't using him much and he ran his idea about Jonah knowing Peter's identity by both the editors and him and they were okay.

    And in any case, what Zdarsky latched on to was the fact that Jonah was in a totally different place than in Civil War when he learnt the identity. That time, Jonah was married, successful, arrogant, and full of himself and Peter admitted his identity on live TV. The second time around, Jonah is a widower, no longer has the Bugle, is a failed mayor, and full of guilt and self-loathing. So what Zdarsky did was legitimize and tap into Slott's run and provide a different arc for Jonah since OMD. For a lot of readers, Zdarsky's My Dinner with Jonah was their entryway to "No One Dies" and stuff like that.

    So that's a case of a satellite writer giving back, like Galactus at the prophesied end of his life, far more than he ever took.

  7. #52
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Events drove the majority of the JMS era, making it feel so separate from the satellite titles. It can't be a coincidence that we had some of the best MJ/Peter stories going on in Sensational or FNSM while ASM just keep marching on inevitably talong the Avengers track. These were hardly touched in the satellite titles, while they were the main direction in the MU and in Spider-Man (as well as the rest of the titles), by editorial fiat.

    JMS wrote Spider-Man's story as part of a giant arc that started during House of M and ended at Seige. And, not so coincidentally, BND completely removed Spider-Man from that chain of events, by way of Back in Black-OMD of course.

    BND felt fresh, in a large part because it did that. All planned. Peter was essentially broken and rebuilt during the JMS run, again as a plan.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 05-20-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    JMS wrote Spider-Man's story as part of a giant arc that started during House of M and ended at Seige. And, not so coincidentally, BND completely removed Spider-Man from that chain of events, by way of Back in Black-OMD of course.
    JMS started Spider-Man in 2001. House of M Happened in 2005, Siege in 2010. By the time Siege came out, JMS wasn't at Marvel, he left after completing his run on Thor, and when he started on Thor, he had finished Spider-Man.

    So that chronology is a quite out of synch.

  9. #54
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    JMS started Spider-Man in 2001. House of M Happened in 2005, Siege in 2010. By the time Siege came out, JMS wasn't at Marvel, he left after completing his run on Thor, and when he started on Thor, he had finished Spider-Man.

    So that chronology is a quite out of synch.
    You're right. I was actually thinking of Avengers Disassembled as the kickoff. If you consider the stories most people criticize the most during JMS - Sins Past (which occurs at the same time as AD/House of M), the Other (right after House of M), Civil War (right after that) and then OMD. I feel the first half of his run is the best, and there seems to be a plausibly event-driven reason behind that.
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  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    You're right. I was actually thinking of Avengers Disassembled as the kickoff. If you consider the stories most people criticize the most during JMS - Sins Past (which occurs at the same time as AD/House of M), the Other (right after House of M), Civil War (right after that) and then OMD. I feel the first half of his run is the best, and there seems to be a plausibly event-driven reason behind that.
    Yeah. I happen to like some of the issues and tie-ins he did then, but yeah for me peak JMS ended with ASM#500. BACK IN BLACK is a very late-game masterpiece though.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    And while major events, like Jonah's discovery and Aunt May's cancer, are referenced in the main book, the actual stories' place in continuity compared to ASM is extremely hard to define besides broad timelines, and I know that can bother some people. For example, if you look at the first 6 issues of Zdarksy's Spectacular, it makes absolutely no sense continuity wise, that doesn't ruin the stories' themselves, but if you wanna connect it with all the other Spidey books for a complete experience, it can be a tad struggling.
    Yeah, that makes it even worse. A massive plot development in Spectacular Spider-Man, that affects Amazing Spider-Man, but doesn't properly fit into its continuity, doesn't fit into any reading order.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Yeah. I happen to like some of the issues and tie-ins he did then, but yeah for me peak JMS ended with ASM#500. BACK IN BLACK is a very late-game masterpiece though.
    I count ASM#500 amongst the best "finales" for the character (besides Spider-Girl: The End and To Have and To Hold), I like to think that right after you finish that story, the timeline of Renew Your Vows kicks in.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    kind of feel that there's a divide in this thread between seeing this main/satellites divide as a creative thing or a commercial thing. Some people are making what's a commercial hassle into a creative issue while others (such as Mister Mets) are being conscientious in separating the two.
    the commercial aspect was really my only gripe. and by saying it’s “rich” doesn’t mean i don’t accept it. a gripe isn’t a deal breaker

    as a tangent; there’s only one other fandom i interact with, and their core storyline runs on multiple platforms across different imprints, mediums and forms. computer games, comics, novels, magazines, board games created by different subsidiary and licensee are all considered canonical

    it’s created an imbalance in knowledge of their universe and encouraged a certain elitism in the fandom for those who have access to all the material

    like you say, the internet can level that out (not forgetting that access to the internet is also a privilege), but we should also remember that diving deep into message boards is not for everyone, and really, shouldn’t be a requirement

    This gets messy. The titles should be satisfactory experiences by themselves, but they lose any sense of identity when each provides the same thing.
    agreed that they should be satisfactory experiences in and of themselves.

    less sure how each title would provide the same thing, unless you’re suggesting that they would repeat a noteworthy event in each satellite for the sake of exposing the entirety of the audience?

    personally as a kid, the gaps in my knowledge had these effects:

    a) imagination ran wild trying to fill in the blanks
    b)i begged my dad to fork over more money
    c)i borrowed and stole where possible

    “b” was probably the only result marvel was consciously after (“a” being a happy side effect and “c”...)

    actually, as a kid, i didn’t even realise ASM was the “main” book, though it did “feel” more important for reasons i wouldn’t have been able to articulate
    Last edited by boots; 05-20-2019 at 06:15 PM.
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  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    While I will agree that the first half of JMS' run is the best overall, capping off with 500, I do think the second half is still pretty good. I actually really liked the first New Avengers arc, which had the 3 of them adjusting to the new surroundings, with alot of nice interactions, Peter with his infiltration to Hydra plot, and MJ dealing with her acting/paparazzi.

    Same with how with Ultimate some people say it dips in quality after Gwen's death, or after the Clone Saga, or after Ultimatum, but I still found myself enjoying the entire run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Events drove the majority of the JMS era, making it feel so separate from the satellite titles. It can't be a coincidence that we had some of the best MJ/Peter stories going on in Sensational or FNSM while ASM just keep marching on inevitably talong the Avengers track. These were hardly touched in the satellite titles, while they were the main direction in the MU and in Spider-Man (as well as the rest of the titles), by editorial fiat.
    I would argue Sensational and FNSM connected just as much to the events and status quo changes as ASM did. The difference they weren't really advancing the story and were rather supplementing it, giving them the chance to focus more on the characters rather than the story, which is how we got Wild Blue Yonder (the one with Fake Superman), Spider-Man Unmasked, and the Mysterio story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Yeah, that makes it even worse. A massive plot development in Spectacular Spider-Man, that affects Amazing Spider-Man, but doesn't properly fit into its continuity, doesn't fit into any reading order.
    Like, Peter's back in his old suit, living in an apartment, and hitting on a new girl, so it has to take place sometime far after Secret Empire, but Flash is still Venom-less, SHIELD is still a thing, FalCap and Ant-Man are there, etc. It's just really funny to look at and try to piece together as a whole.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  15. #60

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    The complexity of the material does raise one other complication. There are so many Spider-Man stories set in different universes and different periods in the character's life, as well as spinoffs with new adventures of characters who aren't Peter Parker.

    Maybe that's the main reason it's better to have Amazing Spider-Man be the main place for new adventures of Peter Parker. It's otherwise too overwhelming for new readers.

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