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  1. #16
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    The way a lot of you people describe the New 52 WW its as if that one page accounted for 90% of the plot.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    New 52's had Finch, which was awful, but Azzarello was by far the best part of the whole bunch - and rape Amazons over the rampant glorification of an isolationist, sexist and xenophobic society which is so pervasive among fans of the "iconic" depiction of the Amazons.
    I liked Azz's run more than most and never minded the Amazons killing (because life's too short to get upset over anything that'll inevitably be retconned) but I don't understand how someone can hate Marston's vision of the Amazons and presumably be a fan. The character is feminist and having her come from an idealised all female paradise is fairly integral part of her story. The society is of course isolationist but that's due to the violence of man's world (and you can always have Diana correct that).

    Breaking with this is only one of many things that Azz did that showed he had little interest in traditional Wonder Woman stories but I liked that about his run. More characters could do with runs that completely break from previous iterations and do their own thing.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The issue of Azz run is Diana is way to much of a supporting cast and player rather than a actually character. Most of which isn't always bad but at times the question is did Diana need to be put there. Many time with DC characters certain storylines have to be unique to them or else what would be the point. I mean for example Orion didn't need to be there.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    The way a lot of you people describe the New 52 WW its as if that one page accounted for 90% of the plot.
    Well, that _was_ bad. More important IMHO is the fact that New 52 WW suddenly was/is the daughter of Zeus, and that this can not be easily retconned because the movie picked up that origin.

    Making Diana a generic demigod, a female Heracles, takes away much from her origin, and much of what made her special. Looking back, that's what I dislike most about New 52. Also, making her carry a sword (or swords hidden in her bracelets etc.). Diana shouldn't routinely carry lethal weapons. To be fair, this started already in 'Odyssey'.

    While I disliked New 52 WW, I'm also not happy with Rebirth. (I have to say that I'm only reading the trades, so I'm not up to date. I can't get single issues in Germany at decent prices.) The sword thing continues, and Diana is more than once wounded by bullets. I am aware that every superhero needs a weakness, like Kryptonite for Superman, so that stories aren't too bland, but I think Marston's WW was never wounded by bullets. Her weaknesses were her hands being chained by a man, being KO'ed by chloroform, or the lasso used against her - but not being shot.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Well, that _was_ bad. More important IMHO is the fact that New 52 WW suddenly was/is the daughter of Zeus, and that this can not be easily retconned because the movie picked up that origin.
    To be fair, the movie made it into a rather minor plot point, and I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the sequels don't bother to bring it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    Making Diana a generic demigod, a female Heracles, takes away much from her origin, and much of what made her special. Looking back, that's what I dislike most about New 52. Also, making her carry a sword (or swords hidden in her bracelets etc.). Diana shouldn't routinely carry lethal weapons. To be fair, this started already in 'Odyssey'.
    Yeah. I'm of the belief that most writers shy away from examining Wonder Woman too closely, and try to make her "safe" to use. As such they also remove the very thing that makes her unique—the implications of her upbringing on Themyscira with regard to class, gender, queerness, sexuality, and so on—while frantically trying to replace that with something else that doesn't manage to fill the void. Seen in that light Azzarello isn't so much an outlier as a natural end point.

    Quote Originally Posted by hgzip View Post
    While I disliked New 52 WW, I'm also not happy with Rebirth. (I have to say that I'm only reading the trades, so I'm not up to date. I can't get single issues in Germany at decent prices.) The sword thing continues, and Diana is more than once wounded by bullets. I am aware that every superhero needs a weakness, like Kryptonite for Superman, so that stories aren't too bland, but I think Marston's WW was never wounded by bullets. Her weaknesses were her hands being chained by a man, being KO'ed by chloroform, or the lasso used against her - but not being shot.
    One thing to keep in mind is that it's probably more fruitful to talk about runs than New 52 or Rebirth in this context. The writers for the Justice League, Wonder Woman, and Superman/Wonder Woman titles wrote very different Dianas. Even right now, with two IMO very good depictions of Diana in JLD and her own title, there is a clear difference in how she is imagined, and the two titles hardly seem to connect with each other.
    ęSpeaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given outĽ (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    It’s never clear. Diana said she never had a father. That she was brought to life by Zeus that can mean anything. However, since it wasn’t the main fact of the storyline like Azz I don’t people would care if she had her clay origin. Azz focused more so on the fact Diana got everything from the men in her family

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    New 52's had Finch, which was awful, but Azzarello was by far the best part of the whole bunch - and rape Amazons over the rampant glorification of an isolationist, sexist and xenophobic society which is so pervasive among fans of the "iconic" depiction of the Amazons.
    Um, the Azzarello Amazons are the sexist, isolationist and xenophobic ones while other depictions of the Amazons are significantly more nuanced and are under no obligation to interact with an outside world that enslaved and raped them after destroying their homes and slandering their reputation. But with Diana's encouragement, they often try to interact with the outside world again anyway. And went to war with another tribe who actually WERE those things, but were still way more fleshed out with their own POVs than Azzarello ever managed with his.

    It's funny you say it glorifies this behavior, but please provide a page where it does. Because you won't find one in the Perez run or Rebirth.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The Banas never raped anyone. I mean the Banas might have killed men but never raped them. I honestly feel the Banas shouldn't go that far. I mean if they are going with a eye for a eye kind of culture depending on the crime.

  9. #24
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I think I preferred the art of the New 52 run – at least, Cliff Chiang's art. Other than that, Rebirth.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    The Banas never raped anyone. I mean the Banas might have killed men but never raped them. I honestly feel the Banas shouldn't go that far. I mean if they are going with a eye for a eye kind of culture depending on the crime.
    They had men locked up in their "breeding stables." They were totally committing rape.

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I’m a bit of a outsider in that I liked both lol. The only time I’ve ever been interested in the DC Greek Pantheon was during Azz’s run. I enjoyed the jousting for Zeus’ throne, the incorporation of the New Gods, Apollo trying to take control, Ares being a cynical mentor to Diana, Diana teaming up with Zeus’ other children. And we know what music Azz Diana likes lol! I thought the rape was overdoing it but otherwise, the run as a whole? I liked it. I would collect the run and make it a Black Label book, officially designating it an Elseworld.

    But I liked Rucka’s run a lot too. Firstborn was a very boring villain whereas Rucka managed to finally create a Cale that clicked for me, I loved his Cheetah, and I’m still sad we never got to see more of his Circe. His Dr. Cyber was great too, I didn’t really know much about her before, and now I want to see her again, I really liked her. His only real miss was Colonel Poison who was just kinda there, and I was disappointed he didn’t revamp Dr. Psycho as well. I liked his Year One origin for Diana as well. Rucka did a great job revamping Diana’s mortal Rogues.

    What they both have in common is that their successors have done a poor job building on what they created. The Finches basically destroyed everything Azz created, and post-Rucka Diana has been left with a handful of boring filler writers, (Orlando excepted) and Robinson’s godawful run. Wilson I feel has started to come into her own with that last issue though, and we’ve got WW1984 on the way so I’m still optimistic about Diana’s future.
    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I think I preferred the art of the New 52 run – at least, Cliff Chiang's art. Other than that, Rebirth.
    I loved the New 52 Greek Gods designs. They were amazing, I’m very sad they disappeared. The humans in togas and animals never really appealed to me, and it’s part of why I find the Greek Gods boring normally. That’s one aspect I wished they hadn’t gotten rid of.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member My Two Cents's Avatar
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    I thought Azzarello Wonder Woman was one of the top books
    On the stands during its run ( some times even #1)

  13. #28
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Superman and Wonder Woman, by far, were the most painfully boring comic super-couple ever assembled.

    Frank Azzarello's Orion, in his imperfection and spiritual struggle, was an infinitely more complex companion for Diana, without ever lying with her, than was Superman, ..with all of his writers' cheesy, contrived huffing and puffing. What's more; Wonder Woman made Orion a better man - not quite a dove, but, a better man and a better hero, certainly. The model for their complex relationship, with Orion being ally, trusted lieutenant, friend and potential love interest, might have been a good one for Greg Rucka's Rebirthed Steve and Diana.

    Frank Azzarello convinced me that Steve and Diana should not, for a very long stretch, be written, as mutually recognized equals. Steve, like 52's Orion, should be written as the most capable and trusted among Diana's small circle of loyalists. That has infinitely more narrative stability and sustainability, because it's always growing and testing Diana's boundaries, than just making Steve, ..her lovesick boyfriend.

    For me, that circle of loyalists might be Etta, Ferdinand, Artemis, Perez's Herakles, I Ching and Troy.

    Neither the 52 or Rebirth are perfect takes on WW. Both have their highlights and pitfalls.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 05-23-2019 at 11:07 PM.
    Look alive, Kangaliers!

  14. #29
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by My Two Cents View Post
    I thought Azzarello Wonder Woman was one of the top books
    On the stands during its run ( some times even #1)
    Not saying yeah or nay on the run, but it never cracked the top 10. It debuted at 13th with 76,214 sold, its highest rank, and had fallen down into the 30s by issue 7 or 8. Azzarello's run ended at issue 35, with 35,958 copies sold in 75th place.

    Rebirth Wonder Woman, on the other hand, debuted at 9th with 107,737. Wonder Woman #6 was the first book to fall below Azzarello's top numbers, hitting 74,856 at 21st place. Rucka ended his run at 37th place with issue 25, 44,106 copies sold.

    By comparison, Azzarello's #25 had 33,532 copies sold and was at 60th place in the rankings.

  15. #30
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Superman and Wonder Woman, by far, were the most painfully boring comic super-couple ever assembled.

    Frank Azzarello's Orion, in his imperfection and spiritual struggle, was an infinitely more complex companion for Diana, without ever lying with her, than was Superman, ..with all of his writers' cheesy, contrived huffing and puffing. What's more; Wonder Woman made Orion a better man - not quite a dove, but, a better man and a better hero, certainly. The model for their complex relationship, with Orion being ally, trusted lieutenant, friend and potential love interest, might have been a good one for Greg Rucka's Rebirthed Steve and Diana.

    Frank Azzarello convinced me that Steve and Diana should not, for a very long stretch, be written, as mutually recognized equals. Steve, like 52's Orion, should be written as the most capable and trusted among Diana's small circle of loyalists. That has infinitely more narrative stability and sustainability, because it's always growing and testing Diana's boundaries, than just making Steve, ..her lovesick boyfriend.

    For me, that circle of loyalists might be Etta, Ferdinand, Artemis, Perez's Herakles, I Ching and Troy.

    Neither the 52 or Rebirth are perfect takes on WW. Both have their highlights and pitfalls.
    Is Frank Brian Azz's brother or cowriter?

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