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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Superman and Wonder Woman, by far, were the most painfully boring comic super-couple ever assembled.

    Frank Azzarello's Orion, in his imperfection and spiritual struggle, was an infinitely more complex companion for Diana, without ever lying with her, than was Superman, ..with all of his writers' cheesy, contrived huffing and puffing. What's more; Wonder Woman made Orion a better man - not quite a dove, but, a better man and a better hero, certainly. The model for their complex relationship, with Orion being ally, trusted lieutenant, friend and potential love interest, might have been a good one for Greg Rucka's Rebirthed Steve and Diana.

    Frank Azzarello convinced me that Steve and Diana should not, for a very long stretch, be written, as mutually recognized equals. Steve, like 52's Orion, should be written as the most capable and trusted among Diana's small circle of loyalists. That has infinitely more narrative stability and sustainability, because it's always growing and testing Diana's boundaries, than just making Steve, ..her lovesick boyfriend.

    For me, that circle of loyalists might be Etta, Ferdinand, Artemis, Perez's Herakles, I Ching and Troy.

    Neither the 52 or Rebirth are perfect takes on WW. Both have their highlights and pitfalls.
    I couldn't disagree with you more when it comes to the SM and WW relationship!! as for Orion being a love interest!! I thought the way Orion treated WW was so disrespectfully! WW is all about a woman being treated with respect, not being treated like a sex object!! Not falling for the guy that has been sexually harassing her! Orion never once called Diana by her name or WW. He called by a body part LEGS!! Women would be insulted to be treated that way!! The women and little girls that look at her as a symbol for strong women would be throwing their WW comics away!! If Orion would have been her love interest!!
    Last edited by lotchj; 05-24-2019 at 07:50 AM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    So itís been a few years. How does rebirth stack up with new 52 Wonder Woman?

    I have to say Iím glad no sex pirates and the fact most of the writers at least make sure they stay within what the story has set up and not reboot everything
    To me 52 supersedes AMAZONS ATTACK as a blight against the character. Unfortunately not all of it has been washed away but I am confident that it will in time. Of course the franchise will still be troubled so long as people like DiDio and Johns are running the show. But one step at a time

  3. #33
    Extraordinary Member hellacre's Avatar
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    New 52 was not perfect and I saw it as a work in progress that should have been allowed to build. Compared to some of the mediocre stuff we got preflashpoint, New 52 was a good modern take that could have been built on and if people did not like the tainted Amazons, a writer could have retconed that instead of throwing everything out. It had some of the best rogues in Azz's Gods and it is a travesty they are made out to be lies for the Disney like Gods of Rebirth. Diana had a very strong sense of who she was despite being a daughter of Zeus. She was very powerful. And I am so happy Azzarello used Orion to show Diana's compassion as opposed to using her as enduring bs behavior from men and that tired outdated troupe of good girls must put up with bad boys and fall for them. It was bad enough when they tried it with WW chasing Batman. If Wonder Woman had to be with someone I would assume the type of woman Diana is , she would be attracted to a compassionate, noble, kind man. I never had issues with her romance with Superman. Made sense to me. It is a shame Soule never got his chance to tell more because he wrote Diana very well. And Azzarello, while he did not use Superman in his run, has written them in Dark Knight 3 as a couple.

    While I like the Ambassador origins begun by Perez and by Rucka, preflashpoint, DC always mess Diana up by never giving her anything stable and always seem to be apologizing for her Amazon heritage and her being powerful and saying incomprehensible things like she needs to be more human as if Amazons have no emotions. Human history is peppered by humans doing crap things and it is also a conceited thing to presume all humans as good just as to an isolationist, warrior based society is a utopia and perfect. I think Azzarello wanted to challenge that notion, which to me is a fair slant if we are really going to look at comics in a modern way.

    Rebirth is so vanilla compared to Rucka's older run. Diana comes across a little foolish than the fresh more innocent Perez for someone as old as she is. Rebirth Diana is very wishy washy and her voice is very dubious and whiny and being with Steve is not helping her much either. Fact it reinforces to me that Perez made the right decision when he rebooted her back in the 80ties and made Steve an elder brotherly ally.

    I envy what Marvel has done with their top tier women. They celebrate that power. If Diana is tough and kicks ass, some fans cry she is a barbarian or savage. Fighting is not a pretty thing and the superhero genre involves action. Then when DC does not focus on her in big events, they cry DC is ignoring her. Well if we have a weaker version, what is she supposed to do against top tier foes? Hug them? Azzarello gave us power and compassion but some people preferred to ignore that and cry over Amazons than celebrate Diana's solid characterization.

    I wish Dc would give us a new 52 earth if they are going to saddle us with this Rebirth version. Wilson's WW is so uninteresting, she makes Finch look pretty good.

  4. #34
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotchj View Post
    I couldn't disagree with you more when it comes to the SM and WW relationship!! as for Orion being a love interest!! I thought the way Orion treated WW was so disrespectfully! WW is all about a woman being treated with respect, not being treated like a sex object!! Not falling for the guy that has been sexually harassing her! Orion never once called Diana by her name or WW. He called by a body part LEGS!! Women would be insulted to be treated that way!! The women and little girls that look at her as a symbol for strong women would be throwing their WW comics away!! If Orion would have been her love interest!!
    But Orion wasn't a love interest...

    He became Diana's companion! Furthermore, his grotesque flirtations were resoundingly crushed by Wonder Woman, for all to see, after which her compassion transformed him into a loyalist [Princesses have those!] and companion. Some of us can't forgive Orion and Hercules for their trespasses, but, apparently Wonder Woman and the Amazons can ..and have. If we don't see Diana's compassion, optimism and refusal to give up on anybody, ever, heal and transform her rivals and enemies ..what good is it?

    Without it, she may as well be Xena, Lady Death ..or Power Girl. Wonder Woman needs her compassion and her friends.

    Maggie, Aphrodite, Steve, Ferdinand, Artemis, Troy, Etta, Prince Jason...

    The Rebirth event has given Diana a more sustainable circle of companions, than the New 52. While New 52 cast seemed very temporary and event-oriented - pregnant Zola, unborn Zeus, villain-banished Hera, reckless Lennox - the Rebirth companions, including Prince Jason, don't have meters running on them. They feel to me, as though they could actually fit into the WW comic's on-going narrative, co-existing with the leading lady, on longer terms. Diana-Maggie-Phro, with Steve and Ferdinand on the side, actually feels like a cast, and that came with Rebirth.

    Guess I've got to choose Rebirth, as the more progressive of the two events.
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 05-24-2019 at 05:30 PM.
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  5. #35
    Mighty Member Deiasilva10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellacre View Post
    New 52 was not perfect and I saw it as a work in progress that should have been allowed to build. Compared to some of the mediocre stuff we got preflashpoint, New 52 was a good modern take that could have been built on and if people did not like the tainted Amazons, a writer could have retconed that instead of throwing everything out. It had some of the best rogues in Azz's Gods and it is a travesty they are made out to be lies for the Disney like Gods of Rebirth. Diana had a very strong sense of who she was despite being a daughter of Zeus. She was very powerful. And I am so happy Azzarello used Orion to show Diana's compassion as opposed to using her as enduring bs behavior from men and that tired outdated troupe of good girls must put up with bad boys and fall for them. It was bad enough when they tried it with WW chasing Batman. If Wonder Woman had to be with someone I would assume the type of woman Diana is , she would be attracted to a compassionate, noble, kind man. I never had issues with her romance with Superman. Made sense to me. It is a shame Soule never got his chance to tell more because he wrote Diana very well. And Azzarello, while he did not use Superman in his run, has written them in Dark Knight 3 as a couple.

    While I like the Ambassador origins begun by Perez and by Rucka, preflashpoint, DC always mess Diana up by never giving her anything stable and always seem to be apologizing for her Amazon heritage and her being powerful and saying incomprehensible things like she needs to be more human as if Amazons have no emotions. Human history is peppered by humans doing crap things and it is also a conceited thing to presume all humans as good just as to an isolationist, warrior based society is a utopia and perfect. I think Azzarello wanted to challenge that notion, which to me is a fair slant if we are really going to look at comics in a modern way.

    Rebirth is so vanilla compared to Rucka's older run. Diana comes across a little foolish than the fresh more innocent Perez for someone as old as she is. Rebirth Diana is very wishy washy and her voice is very dubious and whiny and being with Steve is not helping her much either. Fact it reinforces to me that Perez made the right decision when he rebooted her back in the 80ties and made Steve an elder brotherly ally.

    I envy what Marvel has done with their top tier women. They celebrate that power. If Diana is tough and kicks ass, some fans cry she is a barbarian or savage. Fighting is not a pretty thing and the superhero genre involves action. Then when DC does not focus on her in big events, they cry DC is ignoring her. Well if we have a weaker version, what is she supposed to do against top tier foes? Hug them? Azzarello gave us power and compassion but some people preferred to ignore that and cry over Amazons than celebrate Diana's solid characterization.

    I wish Dc would give us a new 52 earth if they are going to saddle us with this Rebirth version. Wilson's WW is so uninteresting, she makes Finch look pretty good.
    Rebirth was the worst thing that happened to WW, it's the worst version of her that I see in over 40 years of reading... turned the Amazon Princess into a complete idiot, incoherent, weak, immature, sentimentally speaking. Why the stupid sword and shield? Why that uniform with that skirt that is useless? The lasso is her main weapon, the truth is her shield ... when she gets down on her knees for the sons of Ares, does she show compassion and solidarity with her victims? And, apparently getting on her knees is the most used move for her to defend herself! She has no pride or self-love... what Aphrodite's son did in the last few numbers was to rape those people's minds, to corrupt them by generating an almost iniquitous evil, and to her all right? The heads of those children... the understanding, the anguish that passed while their parents gave vent to their carnal desires... is that legal? Okay? She behaves like a plastic doll with plastic feelings! Even with defects new 52 WW was passionate, human, liable to mistakes and recognized them, was in growth, evolution... her stories were well elaborated, strong, there was coherence, she cared... WW rebirth behaves like rebirth SM only caring for those closest to him... both for me have lost the title of heroes, they are just powerful beings who do not connect with humanity, why should I care about them?

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Well Dc didn't want to completely rebooth it. So they are still going with New 52 are certain parts. Rucka's version pretty good. Orion was suppose to be a love interest. That's the reason why he was even in new 52 Wonder Woman

  7. #37
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Honestly, "Rebirth" is too much of a mess that does not deliver on it's supposed pitch to work for me.

    While the "New52" is apparently some sort of an illusion is apparently what happened in "Rebirth", Diana seemingly has an actual twin brother during "Rebirth". Just way too much "maybe?" without the actually concrete foundation that was seemingly the pitch for "Rebirth".

    While I absolutely get why folks would like it, "Rebirth" is way to wishy washy for me.

    Of the two options, it's "New52" easily.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    Well Dc didn't want to completely rebooth it. So they are still going with New 52 are certain parts. Rucka's version pretty good. Orion was suppose to be a love interest. That's the reason why he was even in new 52 Wonder Woman
    The only part they kept was the Papa Zeus origin, otherwise pretty much everything else was thrown out. I guess Jason would technically count as New 52 but he thankfully seems banished forever.

  9. #39
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Honestly with the exception of Action Comics at the time, when Soule was writing Superman/Wonder Woman I felt it was the best book depicting those characters over their solos.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "Now why don't we step up here and everybody get stepped up, and let's get some stepped up personal space up in this place." - Phillip Jacobs

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    To be honest despite hating the Zeus origin still I liked rebirth's better because it's not sexist. That the gods and the amazons played a much fairer origin. I still feel DC still hasn't actually let Diana settle in where she lives. While many of you say her home is Paradise Island, I still think we should see what goes on in the city she picks to live in. I mean Diana going to a nightclub shows her interacting more with the public. I mean seeing Diana actually doing other things besides being a hero is fun. Her just going to a movie or something else in her city would be nice

  11. #41
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    I'm honestly getting flashbacks from that Dan Didio thread, where people argued they hate/dislike the guy because Dan Didio doesn't like Nightwing...even though the character has seen consistent publication throughout Didio's career. Yeah, Azz originally intended to have Orion and WW become a couple...so what? In the actual comic they aren't, so its silly to keep raising the topic.

    From what I remember too, the entire Azz run was originally envisioned as a New God story.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  12. #42
    Mighty Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    I'm honestly getting flashbacks from that Dan Didio thread, where people argued they hate/dislike the guy because Dan Didio doesn't like Nightwing...even though the character has seen consistent publication throughout Didio's career. Yeah, Azz originally intended to have Orion and WW become a couple...so what? In the actual comic they aren't, so its silly to keep raising the topic.

    From what I remember too, the entire Azz run was originally envisioned as a New God story.
    Now I’m curious to know what it originally looked like if that’s true. From what I recall, Azz only took the WW job after Didio basically strongarmed him into doing it by telling him what the plans for Diana were if he didn’t take the book. Apparently they were so bad Azz caved and took the job. Frankly given the state of DC Editorial at the time I have no problem buying that Azz saved Diana from a much worse fate.

  13. #43
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    The originally idea was a lot of the Wonder Woman history was suppose to be true. I wonder how that would have gone

  14. #44
    Relic Seeker Pinsir's Avatar
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    Something that has yet to really be discussed here is how inconsistent Rebirth is. In Rebirth continuity, Wonder Woman is still the daughter of Zeus, but she does not gain her powers from her divine parentage...but by having them bestowed upon her by the Olympian pantheon. So WW is a demi-god without any actually demi-god powers...

    Obviously Rucka wrote his run ignoring the demi-god origin, which is fine for an individual, out of continuity story, but his story is suppose too be the base in which all future runs are built on. Wilson is also ignoring the 'canon' origin of Wonder Woman too. Even though one of her supporting characters, Aphrodite, is at least a relative of Wonder Woman (if not a sister), though the two don't behave as if they are family and they never have really broached the subject either.

    I can't imagine the editors of any other major DC character allowing authors to pick and choose continuity. I mean, if someone were a fresh author on a Superman book they may be genuinely confused as to whether Supes parents are alive or dead (or half and half) as there have been so many contradictory depictions over the years, but an editor is (hopefully) going to enforce the current canon and correct the author if they slip up.
    Last edited by Pinsir; 05-26-2019 at 11:01 PM.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

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  15. #45
    Incredible Member Amazon Swordsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    ....and rape Amazons over the rampant glorification of an isolationist, sexist and xenophobic society which is so pervasive among fans of the "iconic" depiction of the Amazons.
    Yíknow, itís a good thing that certain people will never have a chance to write for this book. It IS possible to write such a society or group of people as flawed/imperfect, but redeemable. The amazons in azzís run were so deeply flawed, that I donít recall any redeeming qualities about them to my recollection.

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