Who Should Take Over Batman After Tom King?

[Daniel22]

Yeah, I'm not impressed either. Tynion seems like a very decent and sweet guy, but his DC stuff just never seems to go above tepid for me. Which probably has a lot to do with him having to work under various edicts from editorial and other writers (like his issues of Justice League), but even when he's on a longer leash there's rarely any urgency to his storytelling, and his villains never seem to really pop. And then there's Daniel, whose sharp angular style never worked for me and judging by the latest issues of Batman hasn't gotten better with time.

That's pretty much my take on Tynion too as far as editorial influence goes. I think his indie stuff is fantastic (Cognetic, Mimetic and Eugenic in particular) and I get a lot more energy, creativity and passion coming through there. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that writers for DC aren't there to tell their own stories much at all but to deliver editorial mandates and directions. I realize that every writer ever working in a shared corporate universe also had those conditions but it seems that in the last 15 years or so DC has been even more restrictive and controlling. It doesn't feel like writers are delivering their own visions usually but instead are translating the demands and directions of corporate as best they can.

[Frontier]

That's pretty much my take on Tynion too as far as editorial influence goes. I think his indie stuff is fantastic (Cognetic, Mimetic and Eugenic in particular) and I get a lot more energy, creativity and passion coming through there. I've pretty much come to the conclusion that writers for DC aren't there to tell their own stories much at all but to deliver editorial mandates and directions. I realize that every writer ever working in a shared corporate universe also had those conditions but it seems that in the last 15 years or so DC has been even more restrictive and controlling. It doesn't feel like writers are delivering their own visions usually but instead are translating the demands and directions of corporate as best they can.

Oh, I think Tynion is very passionate and energized on certain books. I may fault his execution but I felt a lot of love out of his 'Tec run and he seems to be having a blast on the supernatural side of things with Justice League Dark.

Stuff like Ric it's very clear writers are just helping to push editorial mandates and direction (although I hear Scott Lobdell helped push it), or to help develop a line-wide storyline like with Joshua Williamson on Batman and Superman, but for the most part I'd still say most DC writers have a passion and joy in what they write even when I don't like their run or creative decisions.

Of course the editorial edicts and mandates are a thing but...I would argue it doesn't feel that widespread.

[Daniel22]

Oh, I think Tynion is very passionate and energized on certain books. I may fault his execution but I felt a lot of love out of his 'Tec run and he seems to be having a blast on the supernatural side of things with Justice League Dark.

Stuff like Ric it's very clear writers are just helping to push editorial mandates and direction (although I hear Scott Lobdell helped push it), or to help develop a line-wide storyline like with Joshua Williamson on Batman and Superman, but for the most part I'd still say most DC writers have a passion and joy in what they write even when I don't like their run or creative decisions.

Of course the editorial edicts and mandates are a thing but...I would argue it doesn't feel that widespread.

Oh yeah, Justice League Dark, forgot about that one, it's tons of fun! It does feel full of life and energy.

The feeling of a difference between writers at DC and other places has gotten stronger for me as time goes on. People like Jeff Parker, Lemire on some stuff, Williamson, and most recently KSD and to a lesser extent Wilson (among others) just feel very different at DC compared to everywhere else. Maybe it's not fair, since I don't really have any idea how the creators feel about their work.. It just comes across as very different at DC, more like they are writing as a job as opposed to doing something they love and happen to be getting paid to do. They just feel very controlled and limited there, like an artist who gets hired to paint a mural of a particular city as opposed to being given a blank wall and told to go wild within some broad parameters.

[Frontier]

Oh yeah, Justice League Dark, forgot about that one, it's tons of fun! It does feel full of life and energy.

The feeling of a difference between writers at DC and other places has gotten stronger for me as time goes on. People like Jeff Parker, Lemire on some stuff, Williamson, and most recently KSD and to a lesser extent Wilson (among others) just feel very different at DC compared to everywhere else. Maybe it's not fair, since I don't really have any idea how the creators feel about their work.. It just comes across as very different at DC, more like they are writing as a job as opposed to doing something they love and happen to be getting paid to do. They just feel very controlled and limited there, like an artist who gets hired to paint a mural of a particular city as opposed to being given a blank wall and told to go wild within some broad parameters.

Well, I definitely think Independent work offers more freedom then the Big Two does but I don't that means writers are any less passionate or can't deliver some really great stuff on those kind of licensed comics.

Like, I'd put Jeff Parker's Aquaman on par with his Futures Quest. Both were really great books.

Lemire's done some DC work he's very passionate about. I know the upcoming Black Label Question book is something he really wanted to write.

You can't tell me Joshua Williamson doesn't love writing The Flash with how much love and care of the mythos he puts into every issue.

KSD found major success with Carol Danvers and that revamp to the point where she was in the movie. She definitely loves the character.

Granted, I say this as someone who probably reads more Big Two comics then Independent work so that colors my perspective somewhat.

[Daniel22]

Well, I definitely think Independent work offers more freedom then the Big Two does but I don't that means writers are any less passionate or can't deliver some really great stuff on those kind of licensed comics.

Like, I'd put Jeff Parker's Aquaman on par with his Futures Quest. Both were really great books.

Lemire's done some DC work he's very passionate about. I know the upcoming Black Label Question book is something he really wanted to write.

You can't tell me Joshua Williamson doesn't love writing The Flash with how much love and care of the mythos he puts into every issue.

KSD found major success with Carol Danvers and that revamp to the point where she was in the movie. She definitely loves the character.

Granted, I say this as someone who probably reads more Big Two comics then Independent work so that colors my perspective somewhat.

I hear ya... I'm probably being unfair , I don't have any insight into their feelings. I can only go off how their work comes across to me. It would be better if I framed it more clearly as being based on my reactions and left their passion and such out of it. That's what I'm gonna do going forward.

One thing I really commend DC for is seemingly being more open to letting creators do their own thing in formats outside of the standard monthlies. Black Label, (besides DC being complete cowards and caving to alarmists after its FIRST ISSUE) as you pointed out, seems to be a place creators can go with their crazy pet projects. Letting Fraction do Jimmy Olson and King do Miracleman are also big pluses in my opinion and provide a counter argument to DC being too editorially and corporately driven, at least on the fringes.

I do agree that if you read mostly big 2 stuff that will shape your perception. Lemire on Black Hammer or Gideon Falls vs the Terrifics, or Williamson on Nailbiter vs Flash, Yang's other stuff vs Superman, Seely and Latour, Kyle Higgins for sure...etc.. the differences seem stark to me. But a lot of that is just that the indies and the big 2 are totally different animals.

[Inversed]

For me personally I think DC's biggest hurdle is that they have an incredibly talented list of creatives under their belt, but with some exceptions like through the limited series, they all feel under-utilized in the material that they're given.....which is because outside of editorial, everything is pretty much dictated by 3 writers, Snyder, Bendis, and (to a lesser extent) King. They're driving nearly all the big ideas, taking up most of the major projects, and having it so everyone has to work around them. It makes it feel like they're the only stories that "matter" and any other story by someone else is just serving their larger narrative. Even when you get something like Williamson's Batman/Superman or Rucka & Fraction's Lois & Jimmy books, they're still mostly done to follow up or connect to the main Snyder and Bendis plots.

And also for me, while I do really like James Tynion IV as a writer, and he's done more Batman I liked than not (I am a fan of his Detective Comics and his Batman/TMNT is what got me back into buying comics), I think him writing not only so much Batman, but so much Scott Snyder Batman (I think he's probably written half of Snyder's bibliography), their voices blend together, so I don't know if he has as unique voice as he probably could. I am still interested to see what story he's got planned, and having Tony Daniel as the artist is always a good thing (probably as an apology for getting accidentally screwed out of City Of Bane)

[Frontier]

One thing I really commend DC for is seemingly being more open to letting creators do their own thing in formats outside of the standard monthlies. Black Label, (besides DC being complete cowards and caving to alarmists after its FIRST ISSUE) as you pointed out, seems to be a place creators can go with their crazy pet projects. Letting Fraction do Jimmy Olson and King do Miracleman are also big pluses in my opinion and provide a counter argument to DC being too editorially and corporately driven, at least on the fringes.

To be honest, I'm not for caving to alarmists, but from what I've read about the book that stirred up all that trouble...I'm not too bothered by it either.

King's not doing Miracleman...? I think you mean Batman?

I do agree that if you read mostly big 2 stuff that will shape your perception. Lemire on Black Hammer or Gideon Falls vs the Terrifics, or Williamson on Nailbiter vs Flash, Yang's other stuff vs Superman, Seely and Latour, Kyle Higgins for sure...etc.. the differences seem stark to me. But a lot of that is just that the indies and the big 2 are totally different animals.

See, for me I would probably prefer their Big Two work over their Independent work but there's the added benefit for me of character investment in what they're writing.

Yang kind of strikes me as a writer who got screwed over by editorial back when he was writing the main Superman book during Truth, but he also got to do New Super-Man which was amazing.

For me personally I think DC's biggest hurdle is that they have an incredibly talented list of creatives under their belt, but with some exceptions like through the limited series, they all feel under-utilized in the material that they're given.....which is because outside of editorial, everything is pretty much dictated by 3 writers, Snyder, Bendis, and (to a lesser extent) King. They're driving nearly all the big ideas, taking up most of the major projects, and having it so everyone has to work around them. It makes it feel like they're the only stories that "matter" and any other story by someone else is just serving their larger narrative. Even when you get something like Williamson's Batman/Superman or Rucka & Fraction's Lois & Jimmy books, they're still mostly done to follow up or connect to the main Snyder and Bendis plots.

To be honest I'm more bothered when the ideas they come up with drastically alter or derail a book or character I'm enjoying...like Dick into "Ric," Wally, The Super Sons probably not likely to really be a thing ever again, all the heroes getting "evilized" for Year of the Villain.

I don't think connecting back to the core book is as much of a problem if only because Rucka's Lois book and Fraction's Jimmy book are so distinctive in their own right. I mean, ideally I think that should be what any good spinoff feels like.

And also for me, while I do really like James Tynion IV as a writer, and he's done more Batman I liked than not (I am a fan of his Detective Comics and his Batman/TMNT is what got me back into buying comics), I think him writing not only so much Batman, but so much Scott Snyder Batman (I think he's probably written half of Snyder's bibliography), their voices blend together, so I don't know if he has as unique voice as he probably could. I am still interested to see what story he's got planned, and having Tony Daniel as the artist is always a good thing (probably as an apology for getting accidentally screwed out of City Of Bane)

Sometimes I wonder if Tynion is trying to out-exposition Snyder.

[Shadowcat]

I’m waiting to get Guillem March on the main batbook already.

[kjn]

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that writers for DC aren't there to tell their own stories much at all but to deliver editorial mandates and directions. I realize that every writer ever working in a shared corporate universe also had those conditions but it seems that in the last 15 years or so DC has been even more restrictive and controlling. It doesn't feel like writers are delivering their own visions usually but instead are translating the demands and directions of corporate as best they can.

Of course the editorial edicts and mandates are a thing but...I would argue it doesn't feel that widespread.

I think this might partly come down to what one reads. To paraphrase, I think DC can do editorial interference into some titles all of the time, or editorial interference into all the titles some of the time, but not both. Right now, with Year of the Villain, it feels like one of the latter phases.

For me personally I think DC's biggest hurdle is that they have an incredibly talented list of creatives under their belt, but with some exceptions like through the limited series, they all feel under-utilized in the material that they're given.....which is because outside of editorial, everything is pretty much dictated by 3 writers, Snyder, Bendis, and (to a lesser extent) King. They're driving nearly all the big ideas, taking up most of the major projects, and having it so everyone has to work around them

Exactly. To me my impression is that DC very much has an in-group and an out-group for creative decisions and long-term direction.

When I look at YotV and the titles I follow most closely right now: JLD and WW, that difference is really felt. Tynion has been on DC for a long while, and worked together with Snyder a lot. That meant he could prepare and build his run so that when YotV hit, he had the pieces and broad beats in place. Meanwhile, Wilson's WW run felt like it had to do a complete reverse right when it was supposed to hit some real emotional payoff and exploration of Themyscira. Now, Wilson is a good enough writer that she managed to come up with a far more sensible reason for Lex Luthor suddenly gaining a massive following, but from a pacing and plotting perspective it's a massive trainwreck.

[Daniel22]

To be honest, I'm not for caving to alarmists, but from what I've read about the book that stirred up all that trouble...I'm not too bothered by it either.

King's not doing Miracleman...? I think you mean Batman?

See, for me I would probably prefer their Big Two work over their Independent work but there's the added benefit for me of character investment in what they're writing.

Yang kind of strikes me as a writer who got screwed over by editorial back when he was writing the main Superman book during Truth, but he also got to do New Super-Man which was amazing.

To be honest I'm more bothered when the ideas they come up with drastically alter or derail a book or character I'm enjoying...like Dick into "Ric," Wally, The Super Sons probably not likely to really be a thing ever again, all the heroes getting "evilized" for Year of the Villain.

I don't think connecting back to the core book is as much of a problem if only because Rucka's Lois book and Fraction's Jimmy book are so distinctive in their own right. I mean, ideally I think that should be what any good spinoff feels like.

Sometimes I wonder if Tynion is trying to out-exposition Snyder.

I think it defeats the whole point of a mature readers line if you cave in and erase anything people get upset about. Being upset about a penis being shown in a book made for adults only is absurd to me. But I digress.

I was talking about the Miracle Man maxi series King did. That's the kind of off the beaten path, not directly tied into Batman/Superman series I really like and want to see more of from DC. Freedom Fighters, Female Furies, Martian Manhunter and some others recently also fall in that category so maybe DC is more open to them than they have been at other points, like the beginning of Rebirth for example. They are unlikely to be huge hits (except for Miracleman, but that was due to King writing it) but they add some depth and flavor to the line imo.

Agreed that New Superman was great! I have to think there would be less control and mandates on a book like that than something like Superman. I think those books are great examples of how the same author can feel exciting and energetic in one book and feel very directed and controlled in another.

[Nine Crocodile]

I was talking about the Miracle Man maxi series King did. That's the kind of off the beaten path, not directly tied into Batman/Superman series I really like and want to see more of from DC. Freedom Fighters, Female Furies, Martian Manhunter and some others recently also fall in that category so maybe DC is more open to them than they have been at other points, like the beginning of Rebirth for example. They are unlikely to be huge hits (except for Miracleman, but that was due to King writing it) but they add some depth and flavor to the line imo.

When you say Miracle Man, do you mean Mr. Miracle?

[KangMiRae]

I should take over Batman when TK's done. I've got this great idea to make Batman get shot in the head and forget how to drive, so Selina has to take him all the way back to a tricycle with training wheels, eventually remove them, then teach him to ride a scooter, a regular bike, etc., all leading back up to the Batmobile.

And the twist is that since he's been shot in the head, his brains messed up and instead of behaving like a neanderthal in a cape, he acts like a normal human being—although sometimes he makes car noises: "Vroom! Vroom!"

[Daniel22]

When you say Miracle Man, do you mean Mr. Miracle?

Yes! Thank you, don't know how I doubled down on my mistake lol. Especially since I love that book so much. My fault, sorry Frontier!

[Frontier]

I think it defeats the whole point of a mature readers line if you cave in and erase anything people get upset about. Being upset about a penis being shown in a book made for adults only is absurd to me. But I digress.

Well, I think DC reaped what they sowed by starting off their mature reader line with the writer they did...

Agreed that New Superman was great! I have to think there would be less control and mandates on a book like that than something like Superman. I think those books are great examples of how the same author can feel exciting and energetic in one book and feel very directed and controlled in another.

I think it depends. I think the Superman books were much more editorially controlled when Yang first joined up then when he got to do New Super-Man.

[Inversed]

I think it defeats the whole point of a mature readers line if you cave in and erase anything people get upset about. Being upset about a penis being shown in a book made for adults only is absurd to me. But I digress.

I thought it was less people being upset about the penis, and moreso everyone making fun of the penis being there, which kind of turned the start of their serious and mature brand into a joke/meme immediately, even if it was unintentional and ultimately inconsequential. So they panicked and basically waited for the heat to die down before starting back up with the rest of the stories while also making sure there wouldn't be anything that'd be considered as "humorous".