Event Leviathan discussion thread

[The Cool Thatguy]

I think when it comes to spy stories in a shared superhero universe the best characters to use are either non-superheroes or superheroes to obscure (both in-universe and out) to draw the wrong type of attention. I read Bendis' Secret War for the first time and it's obvious the team Fury picked was based on characters Bendis liked rather than characters who would make sense for covert operations. Hill even asked how the hell Fury committed a terrorist act on foreign soil with a team of mostly recognizable superheroes without the media knowing about it and gets no answer (and neither does the audience by proxy).

Agreed, and the internal logic wasn't great past that. Somehow, the team is absolved because Fury wiped their minds. How dos that work?

Or hell, look at Secret Invasion. None of the skrull reveals amounted to much, in-verse or out. Hell, their Queen was close to Nick Fury, yet nothing about that was even mentioned.

I have low hopes on how this will shake out, really.

[K. Jones]

I was thinking about the kind of ironic nature of needing to "clean up" all of DC's weird organizations. It's obvious, and not necessarily wrong-minded, that Dan DiDio wants DC to have its own S.H.I.E.L.D.. I get that concept, of course. One, because Marvel ideas are doing gangbusters, the whole world knows what S.H.I.E.L.D. is now, and it does (even as far back as the Silver Age Marvel runs) really unify the universe and become a spine or cohesive glue that links things in an organic way. Two because everybody can't help but just try to copy Jack Kirby all the time, even if they don't think they're trying to copy Jack Kirby.

But the irony becomes that; the classic argument is that Marvel is more of a "the world outside your window" universe with a little more consistency with the real world. Real cities, slightly realer characters with more foibles and vices, and so on, while DC is more of a world of "gods on earth" that's better at tackling kind of more philosophical, psychological, or abstract stories with its characters. So then ironically ... Marvel primarily featuring this "one, big" organization, S.H.I.E.L.D., that deals with these things ... is far less "real world realistic" than DC having like 25 of the damn things, so many that we can't ever even remember them all if we try to list them.

Because in real life ... in the bureaucracy of governance and civic life ... there are SO DAMN MANY acronym organizations.

[jetengine]

I was thinking about the kind of ironic nature of needing to "clean up" all of DC's weird organizations. It's obvious, and not necessarily wrong-minded, that Dan DiDio wants DC to have its own S.H.I.E.L.D.. I get that concept, of course. One, because Marvel ideas are doing gangbusters, the whole world knows what S.H.I.E.L.D. is now, and it does (even as far back as the Silver Age Marvel runs) really unify the universe and become a spine or cohesive glue that links things in an organic way. Two because everybody can't help but just try to copy Jack Kirby all the time, even if they don't think they're trying to copy Jack Kirby.

But the irony becomes that; the classic argument is that Marvel is more of a "the world outside your window" universe with a little more consistency with the real world. Real cities, slightly realer characters with more foibles and vices, and so on, while DC is more of a world of "gods on earth" that's better at tackling kind of more philosophical, psychological, or abstract stories with its characters. So then ironically ... Marvel primarily featuring this "one, big" organization, S.H.I.E.L.D., that deals with these things ... is far less "real world realistic" than DC having like 25 of the damn things, so many that we can't ever even remember them all if we try to list them.

Because in real life ... in the bureaucracy of governance and civic life ... there are SO DAMN MANY acronym organizations.

Theres also the cynical observation that by destroying them and replacing them with his own, Bendis increases his importance and likelyhood of receiving residuals

[j9ac9k]

Would he? Leviathan existed before him. If residuals were a motive, wouldn't he have come up with something totally original?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Theres also the cynical observation that by destroying them and replacing them with his own, Bendis increases his importance and likelyhood of receiving residuals

Not unfair with regards to Bendis, IMO, but he is replacing them with a pre existing organization /copyright. I doubt he'd get anything

[Agent Z]

Agreed, and the internal logic wasn't great past that. Somehow, the team is absolved because Fury wiped their minds. How dos that work?

From what I understood, since Fury didn't tell the heroes the whole story about why they were really in Latveria they were considered innocent due to ignorance. I guess he had enough of a heart that he made sure they wouldn't go down for his screw-ups and SHIELD was content to just blame everything on him anyway.

Or hell, look at Secret Invasion. None of the skrull reveals amounted to much, in-verse or out. Hell, their Queen was close to Nick Fury, yet nothing about that was even mentioned.

It did have some impact on Jessica Drew for a while and she was one of those characters who got a bit more prominence thanks to Bendis. There's that I guess.

[jetengine]

Would he? Leviathan existed before him. If residuals were a motive, wouldn't he have come up with something totally original?

Leviathan is destroying them. Not replacing them. I doubt any of the heroes are cool with working with a murderous terrorist organisation. Who do you think will create DCs SHIELD though ?

Bendis.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Leviathan is destroying them. Not replacing them. I doubt any of the heroes are cool with working with a murderous terrorist organisation. Who do you think will create DCs SHIELD though ?

Bendis.

They've stated several times that no one has really been killed, though.

REgardless, it'd be hella dumb of the government to say "Hey, you crippled our spy organizations? We'd love for you to work for us!"

[Agent Z]

They've stated several times that no one has really been killed, though.

REgardless, it'd be hella dumb of the government to say "Hey, you crippled our spy organizations? We'd love for you to work for us!"

Dumb, maybe. But it wouldn't be the first time a government allowed their enemies to work for them. Hell, that happens plenty in the DCU. It's pretty much the premise of the Suicide Squad.

[j9ac9k]

Our government wouldn't really have a ton of options either if all their previous people they would have sent against him work for him now. It'd be more like "Hey governments of the world, work with me or get rolled over and I'll fix the world without you."

Or the heroes will end him and this will all go nowhere... (but I doubt it)

[Desmark]

It would be like Leviathan has earned a shot at becoming the premium spy/covert organization due to all the spy organizations falling before it thus proving they have been beaten at their own game.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Our government wouldn't really have a ton of options either if all their previous people they would have sent against him work for him now. It'd be more like "Hey governments of the world, work with me or get rolled over and I'll fix the world without you."

Or the heroes will end him and this will all go nowhere... (but I doubt it)

They'd just promote up the FBI or CIA.

There's n point to having an intelligence agency you can't control or trust. And the entire world can' be served by one agency, because then who are they spying on?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Dumb, maybe. But it wouldn't be the first time a government allowed their enemies to work for them. Hell, that happens plenty in the DCU. It's pretty much the premise of the Suicide Squad.

The squad is just one team of individuals over whom the government has complete power.

Leviathan is an entire organization, over which the government seems to have no influence whatsoever.

Big difference

[j9ac9k]

They'd just promote up the FBI or CIA.

There's n point to having an intelligence agency you can't control or trust. And the entire world can' be served by one agency, because then who are they spying on?

My point was that Leviathan has potentially become powerful enough that the government wouldn't have a choice - not that they'd trust him. And I don't think Leviathan is interested in just "spying" per se. It seems to me he wants to use all these intelligence agencies, their people and their assets to change the world. (how exactly we don't know yet)

[Ulysses]

If this book ends up revealing who Leviathan is and then reveals Leviathan's motivation via expository monologue... I'll be mighty disappointed.